How much to bring/make?

[Cindy2428]

Bee, as others have stated this goes beyond how many bars to take to a show for a new soaper. If you have read threads from European and Canadian soapers, then you realize the hoops these folks have to go through to operate a bath & body products business.

I don't want big government in my life. It's intrusive enough as it is. There are bills out there all the time sponsored by "Big Soap" trying to get most artisan soap off the market. All it would take would be for a Congressperson's kid to have a skin issue; be sold zappy soap and have a large campaign contribution thrown in and we could all be facing regulations that no one wants. As soon as they pass one law, they set a precedent for more down the road. I have no doubt that it's going to happen; it's just a matter of time before we have to have certification/licenses for each recipe we make and sell, and I guarantee you that it will be from someone who sold an inferior bar of soap.

The "1 year rule/guideline"? - For me, not so much. I've attended classes, workshops with people who live, eat breathe their soap as newbies. As long as they present their products legally; have tested their products thoroughly, then God bless - go for it!

July this year marked my 3rd anniversary of handmade bath & body products. Year 1 - I was exploring/researching something fun to do when I retired. Year 2 was actually making soap, finding this forum, investing a lot of money in deciding whether this was just going to be an expensive hobby or possibly a business. By the end of year 2, I was making a pros/cons list of starting a business, and writing out a business plan.

My health had begun to deteriorate and I didn't know if I physically had what it took to be chief cook, bottle washer and seller again. I barely could make it through Guild sessions. Well, 2 major surgeries later and a very slow recovery period, I'm involved in a wholesaling class and getting excited again. If this is what you are burning to do, then don't let anything, anyone stop you. Just please put out the best, safest product you can. Cheers to your new business, Cindy.

 

[BeeMaiden]

Actually, it seems OK to me to use other people's recipes as long as it is OK w/them, ie; they are published, and there is no other element of claiming that you created the recipe somehow. I am describing this badly, but you know what I mean. Also, I think it is likely that you do know what you are doing, to the extent that you can make soap that is decent and much, much better than the syndet bars people are used to buying. I don't think that is what people are really addressing. Pretty much all of us did that fairly early on the soap making journey.

It is just that I think - and the other posters here do as well - that it takes a long time before you can really be sure you are selling a product that is close to as good as it can be. Some of that is subjective, ie; there is no magic date a year out where you will say "Eureka, I'm there!" So I understand why you feel like it is good enough now, more time will not help, and it is frustrating to be told over and over that it does. But it does. You probably made a batch almost right away that was good enough to use/gift, right? But probably it was not as good as the ones you are making now. The timing is just an expanded version of that, and it is more important b/c you are selling.

You are taking a pretty good pounding here without losing your temper, but I don't think you are going to change our minds, and it seems unlikely we will change yours, so it might be best to just to glean this thread and others for suggestions about your OP, and also to search the board a bit more. You may already be using this, but I use sitecomber, this link is set up for searching smf: http://sitecomber.com/search.php?domains=www.sitecomber.com&client=pub-1307489338039489&forid=1&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23FFFFFF%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3A150567%3BALC%3A000000%3BLC%3A000000%3BT%3A0000FF%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BLH%3A0%3BLW%3A0%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fsitecomber.com%2Flogo-490x90.jpg%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.sitecomber.com%3BFORID%3A11&hl=en&channel=5823071447&q=&sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.soapmakingforum.com&sa=Search&safe=active

ETA: Also, as I understand it, if you are doing CP there is no way to make sure shea is the main SF in your soap, you can't selectively SF w/CP. Best not tell people that when selling, it really does constitute a misrepresentation.

I appreciate your advice And a little debate never hurt anyone. I was just feeling a little bugged regarding the perhaps just a tiny bit overly critical replies I recieved. I am here to learn, of course, but the causeless assumptions made about me and my soap make me feel less than welcome. You might note, for example, the ever-so-slightly sarcastic comment made earlier in this thread. It makes me wonder whether there might be a small amount of animosity regarding any new blood in the business, and this is more the root issue, than if my soaps caused someone's skin to fall off.
Seriously, if my customers are happy, why should that concern you? I just got an order tonight from a doctor because he tried my little sample and loved its moisturizing properties and wants to use it in his office.
Regarding the shea - no, I don't use that as a selling point. It's simply a tidbit of information i picked up in my research. But is it not true that shea has a higher unsaponifiable content and therefore it tends to be a goodly percentage of the SF? I simply mention the oils I use and that I superfat so that a tiny bit of that oil content is still in the bar when it is finished.

Bee, as others have stated this goes beyond how many bars to take to a show for a new soaper. If you have read threads from European and Canadian soapers, then you realize the hoops these folks have to go through to operate a bath & body products business.

I don't want big government in my life. It's intrusive enough as it is. There are bills out there all the time sponsored by "Big Soap" trying to get most artisan soap off the market. All it would take would be for a Congressperson's kid to have a skin issue; be sold zappy soap and have a large campaign contribution thrown in and we could all be facing regulations that no one wants. As soon as they pass one law, they set a precedent for more down the road. I have no doubt that it's going to happen; it's just a matter of time before we have to have certification/licenses for each recipe we make and sell, and I guarantee you that it will be from someone who sold an inferior bar of soap.

The "1 year rule/guideline"? - For me, not so much. I've attended classes, workshops with people who live, eat breathe their soap as newbies. As long as they present their products legally; have tested their products thoroughly, then God bless - go for it!

July this year marked my 3rd anniversary of handmade bath & body products. Year 1 - I was exploring/researching something fun to do when I retired. Year 2 was actually making soap, finding this forum, investing a lot of money in deciding whether this was just going to be an expensive hobby or possibly a business. By the end of year 2, I was making a pros/cons list of starting a business, and writing out a business plan.

My health had begun to deteriorate and I didn't know if I physically had what it took to be chief cook, bottle washer and seller again. I barely could make it through Guild sessions. Well, 2 major surgeries later and a very slow recovery period, I'm involved in a wholesaling class and getting excited again. If this is what you are burning to do, then don't let anything, anyone stop you. Just please put out the best, safest product you can. Cheers to your new business, Cindy.

Aww, thanks! I think your fears are ungrounded though - I do the lick test and also test them on myself before even thinking about selling them. I understand that there is plenty at stake including my own name and cottage industry as a whole. I appreciate your concern - and share it. I hope your business flourishes!

As I mentioned above, the bad soap I sent out was NOT my recipe and was the only time I did not formulate my own. This was from a well known soap person in the industry who teaches and has been making soap many many years. Not Anne Marie, but in the industry almost if not as long. It never occurred her recipe would be anything but good. Do not trust someone else's recipes. Think Peacock Swirl girls, although it was not that recipe that was terrible.

BTW olive oil actually makes a very hard bar of soap and in my opinion I hate olive oil, always feels sticky even after a year cure. Animal fat makes the nicest moisturizing hard bar of soaps, leaving Vegans to not use the greatest soap possible. Lard is considered non-comedogenic, olive oil is not, but I use the work loosely since there are no real guidelines for what is and is not comedogenic, mainly some testing done on rabbit ears which was dropped

Sure, it's hard when it is dry after a 6 month cure, but start using it in the shower and you might find it not so hard after all.
This is where I disagree. See, I would never buy your soap because it has animal fat in it. Our skin wasn't made to absorb animal fat. If I am going to bother to make the stuff, then I am going to make the best and lard seems like a cheapo way to make not-so-good soap. Vegetable oils are more expensive because they are higher quality and a more pure fat. I would take a fat from a plant anyday over a antibiotic-pumped fat raised in a factory farm. Just my 2cents.

 

[not_ally]

Regarding the shea - no, I don't use that as a selling point. It's simply a tidbit of information i picked up in my research. But is it not true that shea has a higher unsaponifiable content and therefore it tends to be a goodly percentage of the SF? I simply mention the oils I use and that I superfat so that a tiny bit of that oil content is still in the bar when it is finished.

No, that seems to be something that is clear from much observation/testing, w/CP, ie; active lye, the general rule is that "the lye takes what it wants", and to hell with the soapmaker. HP, different story.

You really are going to have a hard sell about animal fats being a cheapo/unnatural/lower quality form of soaping fat, though. I have to say that my experience is 100% different (except for the fact that lard is cheap, which I love!). Based on what I see here, lard might be the no. 1 oil of choice for most experienced soapers - for qualitative reasons - unless they are opposed to animal fats for vegan/vegetarian reasons, of course. Have you ever used it? I don't think you can really opine about it unless you have. If you can't b/c of the vegan/veggie issue, it is a much smaller soaping world, and it is harder to make a great soap, IMO.

 

[spenny92]

Uh oh... Did someone just diss the lard? I'm off to hide! :shifty:

 

[not_ally]

I know, that is a scary thing

I would say, it it is not a good idea to make a blanket statement about *anything* unless you have tried it yourself. I break that rule myself w/oils that I have read lead to DOS, I will say "I have not tried "x" b/c I have heard it leads to DOS". But it is kind of hard to try something when you already think it leads to DOS!

 

[cmzaha]

Sure, it's hard when it is dry after a 6 month cure, but start using it in the shower and you might find it not so hard after all.
This is where I disagree. See, I would never buy your soap because it has animal fat in it. Our skin wasn't made to absorb animal fat. If I am going to bother to make the stuff, then I am going to make the best and lard seems like a cheapo way to make not-so-good soap. Vegetable oils are more expensive because they are higher quality and a more pure fat. I would take a fat from a plant anyday over a antibiotic-pumped fat raised in a factory farm. Just my 2cents.

Do not judge what you have not tried, and I am not asking you to buy my soap. I also make vegan soap but they do not hold a candle to animal fat soap. And remember we started out as hunters gathers. Every part of an animal was used, they fed us, fats were used as salves, kept of warm etc. Becuase lard is a by product of the food industry and is not as costly as veggie oils it does not mean it makes an inferior soap. Price of oil does NOT determine the quality of a bar of soap

Hard soap is not necessarily a great soap. Coconut oil makes wonderfully hard white soap the lathers in salt water because it is very soluble, so it does not last long. Palm oil makes a nice vegan soap, but in high percentage does not lather well and is waxy feeling. Olive Oil soap is very hard but is slimy and sticky even after a year cure. I never take out castile under a year cure. Lard and tallow make hard low soluble soap that is creamy and moisturizing. Best suggestion is to make 1 oil soaps and form your own opinions not what you read. I love Canola added to soap, but most shy away from it because of dos problems. I have a soap sitting in front of me that was made last September and not 1 spot of dos used at a rate of 20%, so do not believe all you read. Test Test Test

What is Tallow :???:

Tallow soap sounds really interesting

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I saw it earlier (not using lard as animal fats are inferior and wanting to make the best soap) but thought I'd stop with the flogging as my point of view was clear.

But with soap, a wash off product, very little of anything is absorbed. I would also add that oils and soap are totally different things. A lard molecule and a sodium lardate molecule are not the same thing.

Your soap is not moisturizing. It strips less oils than other soaps, maybe, but it is not moisturizing.

To come full circle, these are things that I would want someone to know if I am buying soap from them. A load of blog-copy-and-paste about oil properties is one thing, but if you still have a lot to learn about cp soaps that you are selling, I find that an insult to your customers. You want to sell 'the best' soaps but not wait until YOU have the experience that would make you a good soaper. Making good soaps and being a good soaper are also not the same thing.

As I do not sell yet and I doubt that you would go through the hoops to sell here in the EU, I certainly do not worry about competition. I just think that customers deserve quality, not just from the product but also from the company behind the product.

ETA I am being direct and purposefully 'unfluffy' as this is in the business section - if you want to be in business, you will hear things that you don't want to hear in ways that you don't want to hear it! As it is, you do very well with seeing it for how it is rather than getting in to an emotional wreck about it.

 

[not_ally]

To add to Carolyn's comment, I don't really understand why it is unnatural for our skin to use animal fats. Ie; the idea of using soap in general, in a truly natural state, would never happen. Without any research on the topic, I think our pregenitors would have just dunked themselves in river or sea water to get rid of the itchy stuff, who knows when/why they came up with the idea of burning wood to create ash for lye, adding oils etc. It is hard for me to see why using animal oils, instead of vegetable ones, is less natural in that context.

 

[Seawolfe]

This is where I disagree. See, I would never buy your soap because it has animal fat in it. Our skin wasn't made to absorb animal fat. If I am going to bother to make the stuff, then I am going to make the best and lard seems like a cheapo way to make not-so-good soap. Vegetable oils are more expensive because they are higher quality and a more pure fat. I would take a fat from a plant anyday over a antibiotic-pumped fat raised in a factory farm. Just my 2cents.

Hahahahaha NO.

Speaking as a biologist, our skins were absolutely made to appreciate animal fat precisely because because we ARE animals. And unless you are using only essential oils, plant oils, water and LYE that you are absolutely sure are 100% untainted with anything industrial ever you really do not have a leg to stand on with that argument. Plant fats can sequester bad things right out of the air - where do you think pollution goes when they absorb it?

 

[Relle]

 

[FerrisWheel]

I take 40-50 different bars just to my weekly markets, as does another forum member who sells regularly at markets

Just a quick question RE: cosmetic certification safety where you are...

Over here 40-50 bars of soap to get certified would cost an eye watering amount of money (approx £1500!!!)

What are the rules and regulations over there? I have seen lots of people with tens of dozens of items for sale and often wonder how they can afford the certifications.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

In the U.S. of A there is no need for such things, which has pros and cons, of course

Eta, the total cost would depend on how different those soaps actually are

 

[BeeMaiden]

Do not judge what you have not tried, and I am not asking you to buy my soap. I also make vegan soap but they do not hold a candle to animal fat soap. And remember we started out as hunters gathers. Every part of an animal was used, they fed us, fats were used as salves, kept of warm etc. Becuase lard is a by product of the food industry and is not as costly as veggie oils it does not mean it makes an inferior soap. Price of oil does NOT determine the quality of a bar of soap

Hard soap is not necessarily a great soap. Coconut oil makes wonderfully hard white soap the lathers in salt water because it is very soluble, so it does not last long. Palm oil makes a nice vegan soap, but in high percentage does not lather well and is waxy feeling. Olive Oil soap is very hard but is slimy and sticky even after a year cure. I never take out castile under a year cure. Lard and tallow make hard low soluble soap that is creamy and moisturizing. Best suggestion is to make 1 oil soaps and form your own opinions not what you read. I love Canola added to soap, but most shy away from it because of dos problems. I have a soap sitting in front of me that was made last September and not 1 spot of dos used at a rate of 20%, so do not believe all you read. Test Test Test

What is Tallow :???:

Certainly hardness is not the only criterion for my soap. I judge it on moisturizing ability (and yes, soap does moisturize and it is important that it does otherwise we wouldnt superfat), lather, and how long it lasts in the shower.
I find it slightly amusing that you are so firmly rooted in your opinions that you cannot handle someone else's opinion.
I think it all boils down to our worldview. See, I don't believe in the hunter-gatherer theory, nor in evolution. So the point you made about the hunter-gatherers is meaningless to me because I don't hold to that theory. I definitely don't want an argument about that, but it appears we will never see eye-to-eye
If I wanted lard soap, I could get some at the store. Unfortunately soaping has gotten me into the habit of reading soap labels. But high-quality vegetable soap? uh-huh. Maybe you just don't know how to made vegetable soap correctly. It's pretty awesome stuff.

 

[Susie]

I appreciate your advice And a little debate never hurt anyone. I was just feeling a little bugged regarding the perhaps just a tiny bit overly critical replies I recieved. I am here to learn, of course, but the causeless assumptions made about me and my soap make me feel less than welcome. You might note, for example, the ever-so-slightly sarcastic comment made earlier in this thread. It makes me wonder whether there might be a small amount of animosity regarding any new blood in the business, and this is more the root issue, than if my soaps caused someone's skin to fall off.

1) I find nothing said overly critical or sarcastic. What you got was straight up truth with patient explanations.
2) Two(or more) of us do not sell soap, and probably never will. This has nothing to do with competition, as I tried to point out earlier.

Seriously, if my customers are happy, why should that concern you? I just got an order tonight from a doctor because he tried my little sample and loved its moisturizing properties and wants to use it in his office.
Regarding the shea - no, I don't use that as a selling point. It's simply a tidbit of information i picked up in my research. But is it not true that shea has a higher unsaponifiable content and therefore it tends to be a goodly percentage of the SF?

No, it's not true. You won't trust my answer, so you go do your own research on superfats and what fatty acids are left after the lye gets done with it. I will give you a hint, though, look for Kevin Dunn.

I simply mention the oils I use and that I superfat so that a tiny bit of that oil content is still in the bar when it is finished.


Aww, thanks! I think your fears are ungrounded though - I do the lick test and also test them on myself before even thinking about selling them. I understand that there is plenty at stake including my own name and cottage industry as a whole. I appreciate your concern - and share it. I hope your business flourishes!


Sure, it's hard when it is dry after a 6 month cure, but start using it in the shower and you might find it not so hard after all.
This is where I disagree. See, I would never buy your soap because it has animal fat in it. Our skin wasn't made to absorb animal fat. If I am going to bother to make the stuff, then I am going to make the best and lard seems like a cheapo way to make not-so-good soap. Vegetable oils are more expensive because they are higher quality and a more pure fat. I would take a fat from a plant anyday over a antibiotic-pumped fat raised in a factory farm. Just my 2cents.

Do you know why pigs are used so often as the last animal to test medications and products that they are developing for humans? It is because they are so similar to us in how their bodies are made and how they react that it is an excellent predictor of how humans will react. People also have had successful "pig part" transplants of such things as heart valves. We also used to use porcine based insulin on humans.

Also, the fact that you do not have the time spent in testing tells me that you have no idea what the quality of your soap will be after a six months to a year cure. Not to mention DOS.

 

[FerrisWheel]

In the U.S. of A there is no need for such things, which has pros and cons, of course

Eta, the total cost would depend on how different those soaps actually are

Yeah. I did wonder how so many soapers on YT, etc... have literally hundreds of bars of soap and constantly make new things.

There is a successful YT soaper who has used other peoples recipes for things (not just soap) and shows the making process. She isn't very accurate with measurements (I remember seeing here being over 10% out on one ingredient!).

She'll often sign off her videos by saying "this will be available on my website in a couple of weeks/a month"

I simply can't believe that the right level of testing has been carried out.

 

[BeeMaiden]

Wonderful....just enough time for a good cure

<you cannot tell me that this wasn't sarcastic:crazy:

Do you know why pigs are used so often as the last animal to test medications and products that they are developing for humans? It is because they are so similar to us in how their bodies are made and how they react that it is an excellent predictor of how humans will react. People also have had successful "pig part" transplants of such things as heart valves. We also used to use porcine based insulin on humans.

I understand that pigs are very similar to humans, but you are not using the pigs "skin grease" on your skin, you are using his internal grease. There is a difference, therefore, your logic dosen't hold up.

Yeah. I did wonder how so many soapers on YT, etc... have literally hundreds of bars of soap and constantly make new things.

There is a successful YT soaper who has used other peoples recipes for things (not just soap) and shows the making process. She isn't very accurate with measurements (I remember seeing here being over 10% out on one ingredient!).

She'll often sign off her videos by saying "this will be available on my website in a couple of weeks/a month"

I simply can't believe that the right level of testing has been carried out.

Thats strange. Soap dosen't take a "couple" of weeks to cure, it takes at least a month and a half.
But it would be cool to be able to show the video of it being made.

 

[KristaMarie]

I find it slightly amusing that you are so firmly rooted in your opinions that you cannot handle someone else's opinion.

Aren't you doing the exact same thing?

I was watching this thread earlier, impressed by your ability to not lose your cool and thinking maybe people were being a bit harsh. Now I'm seeing it may have been justified.
You can't come here and insult the quality of the products made by much more experienced soapers, because they contain :: gasp:: lard. I don't use lard, because I'm a vegetarian and it doesn't feel right to me. However, I recognize that lard brings great qualities to soap and it's use prevents more waste in landfills.

Just because something can be found in store bought products doesn't mean it's of lower quality. That doesn't mean you have to use it, but don't be insulting.

 

[rparrny]

If I wanted lard soap, I could get some at the store. Unfortunately soaping has gotten me into the habit of reading soap labels. But high-quality vegetable soap? uh-huh. Maybe you just don't know how to made vegetable soap correctly. It's pretty awesome stuff.

I have been reading this thread and have seen you morph from inquisitor to defender to insulter....
A wise old man once said "Those who cannot appreciate their opponents point of view do not truly understand their own"
I am known among people who love and hate me as someone who calls a spade and spade and refuses to be politically correct (I personally think it is ruining this country) so here goes my two cents...
When I read your posts, I envision a young 20 something person with all the enthusiasm and energy that comes with that age, looking to start a business with a handmade product that will be loved by all. I also see, like I have seen in my children when they were that age (thank goodness that's over) that they know better than anyone, especially someone older than themselves...I remember telling my daughter "Amber, I can't wait until I'm 25 and then I'll know everything".
With age comes wisdom and that is what you're being offered here...granted some responses are a bit harsh, but a true apprentice (and that is what you are, whether you want to admit it or not), needs to bite the bullet and show respect to those who have much more experience in both the art of soap making and the business as well. Defending your position is a product of immaturity but insulting members here that are considered well respected artisans is just...well a character flaw...
Now you can just tell yourself this is a group of stuck up soap makers trying to keep a new kid on the block from breaking in and leave...or you can re read your posts, recognize the degradation and arrogance of them and give a heartfelt apology and maybe you can learn something here...

 

[Susie]

Many soaps, especially high OO soaps, take a minimum of 6 months to cure. All soaps change greatly with a longer cure. You show your lack of research and experience here. Which is exactly our point.

You need to go do research on the chemical makeup of the various "greases" of pigs if you don't understand them. I am not arguing with your desire not to use lard in soap. I am not trying to convince you to use it. But you took a stand against something you don't understand, and managed to insult every soaper here that uses lard.

It just may be that we understand something that you don't, and more education and experience might help you understand. However, there is no helping someone who won't learn.

 

[Cindy2428]

Homage to the Lard!!!!!

First of all, Relle you are just too funny; love you sister!

Bee - I have a story for you re lard soap. My first soap was an unscented, plain HP castile that I still test, use every 3 months for over the last 15 months?? - no notes in front of me. I keep hoping it will get better, but can't get beyond the slimy feel. My next exploration was small batches of vegetable oils with additives to create a base vegetarian recipe. It took 6 months of 2-3x a week batches to create one that as a customer, I would pay for. It's time consuming and expensive to make and my testers give it on average an "8" on the overall satisfaction scale.

Then, after much reading here, the lard bug struck. Having had greasy skin and acne as a teenager, I had a preconceived dislike for washing my face with "piggy", but the mad scientist in me could not pass up on possibly missing out on something wonderful.

Well, as the lard/tallow gurus here are smiling, lard soap just cannot be beat. It is no coincidence that it has outlasted everything else, and has survived Grandmas, great and great, great, great grandmas recipes. All of my fiddling, down to 0.5% of this and that in my vegetable soap could not beat a simple, cost effective lard soap.

Now, here's the story - A few weeks ago I went to a spa/salon looking to buy a wig. As the owner was helping me, we immediately connected. Of course I started talking about soap. She asked for some samples; her interest was in the vegetarian soap...... I made her a basket of well cured soap - unlabeled and asked her and her staff to try the different types and to let me know which they liked best. (Susie, I can see you smiling). I went back a week later for some well-deserved pampering and the results:

1). Prettiest soap; M&P - 20 somethings did not find it too drying. 30+ said it would make good guest soap; not something they would use.

2). Best soap - hands down piggy all the way. I gave them 2 kinds 50% and 70% lard with a mixture of 5% SF with shea and mango butter with a 100% coconut milk sub in both.

3). Only 1 out of the 6 even liked the vegetarian soap better than the M&P! I'm not knocking M&P, I personally love it and recommend SFIC base all of the time: But once your skin starts to dry out and show signs of aging - not the product to use.

Now these results were not surprising to me - my testers have consistently told me the same thing. I loved the look on these folks faces when I went over the ingredients. (BTW - I did check for vegans and allergies and kosher lifestyles).

The bottom line to this soliloquy is as a business owner, you need to find your own niche and identify your customer. From your posts it sounds like based on your value systems that your customer is a lot like yourself. You may want to consider branching out though..... Your competition will.