How much to bring/make?

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hmlove1218

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Certainly hardness is not the only criterion for my soap. I judge it on moisturizing ability (and yes, soap does moisturize and it is important that it does otherwise we wouldnt superfat), lather, and how long it lasts in the shower.
Actually, TEG (and all the others), are correct. Soap cannot moisturize as it is against the nature of the product - soap cleans. Some soaps clean extremely well, thus stripping the skin of its oils and making us feel dry. Other soaps don't clean as well and leave some oils to remain on the skin.

Superfat has nothing to do with this in its purpose, as superfatting is there to ensure that the soap is safe to use and has no lye excess. Plus, it's a lot easier and makes a much better soap than the old salting out method.

I find it slightly amusing that you are so firmly rooted in your opinions that you cannot handle someone else's opinion.
I think you are describing yourself very well here, as most of the members who are responding to you have at least double your experience in soapmaking. You are being very stubborn in your point of view and unwilling to see it from the other side of the fence..

I think it all boils down to our worldview. See, I don't believe in the hunter-gatherer theory.... So the point you made about the hunter-gatherers is meaningless to me because I don't hold to that theory.
As the minions say whaaaaaa?? I didn't know the ancient Mayan had Walmart stores! Just learned something new :)

If I wanted lard soap, I could get some at the store. Unfortunately soaping has gotten me into the habit of reading soap labels. But high-quality vegetable soap? uh-huh. Maybe you just don't know how to made vegetable soap correctly. It's pretty awesome stuff.
Oh yes, you certainly could get lard soap at the store, but then it is not a handcrafted soap and likely isn't soap at all. We could all just go buy soap at the store and not make it anymore and most of us would save a bit of money. But we all got into this hobby because we wanted something better for our skin than the crap at the supermarket. The lard soaps at the store cannot hold a candle to a quality handmade lard soap - and this is coming from a veggie soaper!

I personally don't care for lard soaps, but I at least tried it before I ruled it out of my recipe. I would highly suggest you do as well because lard is much, much closer to the makeup of human skin than any vegetable oil will ever be.
 

not_ally

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Bee, I think the reason this conversation is so unproductive - in terms of reconciling viewpoints, not airing them :) - is that you have very decided ideas about things, generally and regarding soaping - which are probably not consistent with those of most of the rest of us. Eg.; evolution. I absolutely do not agree with you, but also absolutely think you have a right to your own beliefs. Who knows, maybe when I die and discover the great truths the joke will be on me.

But if you do not believe in the evolution of species and the resulting genetic propinquity that it brings, why even talk about how close pig DNA/oils might be to human ones? That seems inconsistent to me. If I were you, I might just say that your religious/philosophical beliefs are such that you use certain oils and do not use others (if that is the case, although I am still not sure that is why you rule out lard, or if you've even tried soaping with it, I don't think you've responded to that.) Anyway, that would make it easier for you, and you might not to even have to do it that much if your customer base shares your views.

ETA: I am going to ask very clearly and explicitly here: HAVE YOU USED LARD IN YOUR SOAP YET? Sorry, for the caps, I hate, hate, hate it when people do that, but it would be v. helpful to know, and at least it won't get overlooked/unaddressed unless you purposefully choose to do so.
 
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cmzaha

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<you cannot tell me that this wasn't sarcastic:crazy:


I understand that pigs are very similar to humans, but you are not using the pigs "skin grease" on your skin, you are using his internal grease. There is a difference, therefore, your logic dosen't hold up.



Thats strange. Soap dosen't take a "couple" of weeks to cure, it takes at least a month and a half.
But it would be cool to be able to show the video of it being made.
Actually many moons ago when I had a 3rd degree burn on half my face, fell asleep on the bow of our boat which was a bad plan, they did you pigs grease to help soften the dry hard crust and to help scarring. I ended up with not scarring even with having it peeled by the doc.

Just for information I superfat way less than 5%, my drains cannot take all the extra oil in soap and it also helps cut scum. And several of my customers have noticed the difference and ask I am doing different. As mentioned you have a lot to learn. You see, I am comfortable enough with my recipes so I do not need to superfat. Soap is not moisturizing, technically moisture needs to come from the inside. Lotion that will absorb into the skin when made correctly will help but not solve all moisture issues. Experience is the best educator. We can all learn from books which is necessary, but the true education comes from experience
I am in the USA so I can take all I want, it may change in the next few years but for now I will go with a large amount of selection. Actually I have been whittling down my recipes, to what I feel are the ones I could not go to market without, preparing for the day we may have to change

<you cannot tell me that this wasn't sarcastic:crazy:
Nope, not sarcastic just the truth. :lolno:
 

IrishLass

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BeeMaiden said:
I judge it on moisturizing ability (and yes, soap does moisturize and it is important that it does otherwise we wouldnt superfat
BeeMaiden, again, I hope you take this in the spirit in which it is given, but the above statement is a prime example of the wise adage that Navigator posted earlier in the thread.... that "you don't know all the things you don't know", and that's why you are getting the advice from everyone to slow down and hold off on jumping into selling right now and continue doing more research.

As the good Gent, Hmlove1218, and others have so rightly pointed out, soap does not moisturize. It cleanses. The only thing that a superfat does, besides making sure our soaps are not lye-heavy, is to lessen it's cleansing ability to strip off as much of our skin's natural oils that it normally would strip off with a lower superfat.

In other words, all of those super-fatting oils are still chemically a part of the soap's alkaline matrix and will go to work to cleanse your skin, but maybe not as harshly as it would have at a lower super-fat.

I can see how some may perceive this lesser cleansing effect to mean that a soap is moisturizing, but, truly, it's just that the soap is not as effective at cleansing one's skin as it could be at a lesser super-fat. On the surface of things, one might mistakenly deem these to mean the same thing, but there are actually different mechanisms going on.


IrishLass :)
 

jolando

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confused

Longtime lurker, first time poster.

I'm a fairly new soaper (less than 2 years) and I make goat milk soap. I read over and over again about how goat milk soap is greatly moisturizing because of capric-capryllic triglyceride and extra glycerin.

So, I'm reading this thread and a few people mention that soap is NOT moisturizing, that it 'moisturizes' by how much oil isn't stripped off the skin. So why is milk used at all in soap? Novelty? The feel of the lather?

Also, since cmzaha was mentioned as being successful in this business for a long time, I went to her site to check out her products. The glycerin soaps are advertised as offering the following benefits:
• Provides Moisture to the skin; Leaving you feeling hydrated for hours
• Moisturized & healthy skin is known to aid in preventing wrinkles, stretch marks/tears in the skin

And the Cool Water Goat's Milk Bar has the following copy:
Known properties of Goat milk
moisturizing and nourishing to the skin because of capric-caprylic triglyceride.

Capric-caprylic triglyceride
is an oily liquid made from coconut oil which is known as an effective skin moisturizer that helps to contribute to skin softness; slowing the loss of water from the skin by forming a barrier on the skin’s surface. It is the only milk that contains naturally occurring capric-caprylic triglycerides; protein strands of goat milk are shorter than other types of milk and are more readily absorbed by skin.

Naturally occurring lactic acid
that helps keep skin smooth by encouraging skin turnover (it acts similar to a gentle peel). It also contains many vitamins, specifically A, D and B6, as well as the anti-oxidant Selenium.

We only purchase our goats milk from a supplier that uses only happy goats! They are never fed anything genetically modified or containing animal bi-products and raised on farms that do not use any sprays, insecticides, or pesticides. Our suppliers goats milk is whole and pasteurized; no growth hormones, antibiotics, or preservatives.


I'm not trying to pick on her, but that's the kind of stuff I read about handmade soap and goat's milk soap, and the public reads, so I'm just using it as an example that can be found lots of places. But apparently it isn't true? Or is misleading?

Like I said, I'm rather new to the soaping world, so I was hoping someone could explain the contradictory info.


Thanks!
 

not_ally

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It seems a little disingenuous to say that you are not picking on Carolyn, but still find her web site and quote large blocks of text from it. I thought that was unnecessary. You could have made your point in a much different way.

That being said, I understand what you are saying generally about the "moisturizing" versus "non-stripping" terminology. At this point, in my mind, they are pretty much the same thing. People describe it differently, but to me they are more or less interchangeable. Like using the terms superfat or lye discount interchangeably.
 
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kumudini

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First thing first, you ARE picking on her. There's nothing on her site that says her soaps do all that, only that they contain known substances with those properties. It's called information. She is giving her customers the benefit of information about all the things in her soaps, that she and so many of us here feel that might be good for the skin.No where on her site it says that the soaps by themselves are moisturizing. It is very open and mean spirited attack on this experienced soaper who freely and generously helps fellow soapers in their soapy dilemmas. Please know that this won't be tolerated at any cost.
 

The Efficacious Gentleman

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Agreed - you could have used more generic wording.

Also bear in mind the terminology that customers would use compared to what is actually the case, it can be a world apart. While we look at it as less stripping, to the customer it feels better on the skin and the only way they can really relate to that is to think of moisturizing the skin.

As for milk, the enzymes might well play a role in things, but the fat certainly increases the superfat of the soap, making it less stripping......
 

jolando

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It seems a little disingenuous to say that you are not picking on Carolyn, but still find her web site and quote large blocks of text from it. I thought that was unnecessary. You could have made your point in a much different way.
It's in her sig! You make it sound like something nefarious!
I was curious about her products since people here respect her, and saw the same info I've seen dozens of other places, and had directly been disputed in this thread, so I thought I'd ask. Out of confusion, not mean spirited-ness. Again, an example, one that I found directly because of this thread.
I thought I was being thorough and clear by quoting.

Thank you for your input regarding my question. I can see how it would be easier to say soap is moisturizing than to explain how it leaves more of your natural oils. Points to the right conclusion even though they're different methods.

Vkumudini:
There's nothing on her site that says her soaps do all that, only that they contain known substances with those properties. It's called information.
Yes, it doesn't say anywhere "These things will happen with use of this product," but it does say "Known Benefits of Glycerin Soap." (Again, not intending ill will, but it does say that)
That greatly implies that you should experience some of those things if you use the product, otherwise why include the info? (I am not asking her directly or in particular, again, lots of people do this) Just saying that most people reading that would take it to mean "OK, that's what I can expect from this product, so I'll buy it." I decided to get that thing called information here because it has been disputed here. I know there are lots of things people are misinformed, or misunderstand, about in general and was hoping for some insight on this particular issue.

I would quote other sources, but the makers might also be members here and apparently that would constitute "attacking."
 

cmzaha

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Longtime lurker, first time poster.


I'm a fairly new soaper (less than 2 years) and I make goat milk soap. I read over and over again about how goat milk soap is greatly moisturizing because of capric-capryllic triglyceride and extra glycerin.


So, I'm reading this thread and a few people mention that soap is NOT moisturizing, that it 'moisturizes' by how much oil isn't stripped off the skin. So why is milk used at all in soap? Novelty? The feel of the lather?

Thanks!
Just in case you are interested the website is not mine but my daughters, and you had no right to quote what is on our site. We do not outright state soap does anything. So do not judge me, my daughter or our site. This is actually why I never used to list our site name. I sell at outdoor markets and DO NOT advertise that soap does anything magic, some feel superfatted soap moisturizes, so be it. People ask me for acne soap, I tell them I have no such soap, only some that some find helpful.

Online sales are extremely competitive and sometimes the envelope get pushed a bit, my daughter has to make a living from her site so do not judge her either. I do not lie to people and do not recommend handmade soap to everyone. Some people simply cannot use it.

Just a little FYI, FDA, several years ago, was all over our site and we had no letters to discontinue and remove any wording. The inspector also placed a large order with us.

I DO NOT appreciate seeing text from our website Posted in a forum or anywhere else. You DID NOT have permission to copy and paste from us. This will not make you very popular... I am quite unhappy at the moment to come home from a hot night at market with poor sales and see this :mad:
 
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jolando

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Just in case you are interested the website is not mine but my daughters, I do not necessarily approve of some descriptions but gave up fighting her a long time ago about it since she has to make a living at it. So do not judge me, and do not quote what is on my daughters site.
I thought this might be the case because I did look at the "About Us" page, and you weren't a contact. Not specifically that it was a family member, or not your site at all, but a lot of business owners don't run their sites, and things can get muddled up when delegated, etc.
It wasn't a judgement or intended to be personal, because, as I stated, I see it everywhere. I thought it would better illustrate what I was asking.

Oh! You edited your post.
I don't think I needed permission. I clearly stated where I got it, didn't claim it as my own.
If there are laws against this, I'm ignorant of them.

And I never meant to imply you (and others) are doing anything illegal, or against any regulations. It really is that I saw there was contradictory info that led me to think I had been misinformed (not necessarily intentionally) by all the sites that say soap can be moisturizing and wanted to know if that was true or not.
 
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cmzaha

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I thought this might be the case because I did look at the "About Us" page, and you weren't a contact. Not specifically that it was a family member, or not your site at all, but a lot of business owners don't run their sites, and things can get muddled up when delegated, etc.
It wasn't a judgement or intended to be personal, because, as I stated, I see it everywhere. I thought it would better illustrate what I was asking.

Oh! You edited your post.
I don't think I needed permission. I clearly stated where I got it, didn't claim it as my own.
If there are laws against this, I'm ignorant of them.

And I never meant to imply you (and others) are doing anything illegal, or against any regulations. It really is that I saw there was contradictory info that led me to think I had been misinformed (not necessarily intentionally) by all the sites that say soap can be moisturizing and wanted to know if that was true or not.
So, I edited my post, it is allowed, because I continued to become more and more unhappy to see someone take direct quotes from our site, or anyone's site. You want a question answered ask the question do not go to someone's site and quote what is said on their site. I am a part owner but I do nothing with the site. You took Our descriptions and pasted them here, not a cool thing to do
 

Dorymae

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Jolando, Carolyn is correct when she says it is very competitive. Her wording is actually very good. I'm impressed. You see we walk a very fine line selling on the internet, the FDA is very explicit with what can be said and yet we need to convey to the public, who do not understand the science behind soapmaking, what sets our products above the rest.

To give an example of how fine that line can be take this statement:

Can reduce fine lines and wrinkles.

Written this way is a violation and would make your product a drug.

However:

Can reduce the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles. This is a perfectly legal cosmetic claim.

To the consumer's mind they add up to the same thing but they are not.

This is the line we need to walk and frankly Carolyn did a great job as far as I can see.
 

jolando

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Ok, so the consensus of the replies in this thread is that soap is not moisturizing, but it can be permissible to let customers think that it is because it's an easier and more familiar concept. Got it.

Now back to my question regarding goat milk.
As for milk, the enzymes might well play a role in things, but the fat certainly increases the superfat of the soap, making it less stripping......
The butterfat can be accounted for and a 0% superfat milk soap could be made, nullifying the "moisturizing" properties, leaving only the enzymes that might make it through saponification. With that in mind:
Would then the only reason to use it be the potential enzymes since you can make any bar less stripping by superfatting using any combo of oils/fats?

I'm a function over form kind of person, so if the main benefit of using goat milk is label appeal, I'd rather not use it.
I'd appreciate anyone's input; I quoted Efficacious Gentleman because that's the only instance of someone addressing my question about milk in soap.
 

The Efficacious Gentleman

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Make a batch with and one without - that being the only difference, even if you account for the sf difference or not, but keep the recipe itself the same. Then compare the two.

My shaving soap with milk of the goat is much better than the same recipe with just water. In that particular case I find it to be much more than just label appeal
 

jolando

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I'll have to try that; thanks!

Is your shaving soap with goat milk better overall? Is there anything in particular you like about its performance?
 

cmzaha

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Many things you will have to make up your own mind on and not go on someone's opinion. Label appeal means everything when you are selling in a saturated market whether it be outdoor markets or online. It is called Marketing. I happen to prefer soap with distilled water for the lather factor, but gm milk helps sell it so guess what I make... Actually there is not much I do not make. I now have a line of Camel Milk Soaps for my return to a former market I left after 5+ yrs that has 3 other soapmakers. I need an edge! ;)

You will only have your answers after hundreds of batches of soaps and testing
 

rparrny

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Wow...all of a sudden I feel so dainty, so gracious...so politically correct!:)
 

not_ally

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Many things you will have to make up your own mind on [.]
That is true for almost everything with me. There seem to a handful of fail safe rules (CO is drying, 4 week + cure required, no selective SF w/CP, etc.). Otherwise it is *all* a question of subjective opinion/perception, based on individual soapers and their individual needs. There at things which *I* feel make a perceptible difference, or that feel a certain way to me (either good or bad) but others - whose opinions I respect - disagree.
 
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