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kmarvel

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I would like to make a suggestion, if I may?

Would it be possible to have a Topic folder for Hot Process Soap exclusively? I am trying to dig thru hundreds of threads to find threads on the HP.

Thank you.
K. Marvel
 

Obsidian

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Its been suggested before any turned down by admin. I agree though, I would like to see separate CP and HP sections.
 

OliveOil2

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The only thing about the two processes that I consider similar are the ingredients, I don't think the techniques, tools involved, or finished product are similar. I can understand the thinking about keeping everything under one topic, but I do not agree.
 

The Efficacious Gentleman

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The only thing about the two processes that I consider similar are the ingredients, I don't think the techniques, tools involved, or finished product are similar. I can understand the thinking about keeping everything under one topic, but I do not agree.

Take away the source of heat (such as a slow cooker) and the tools are totally the same.

Actually, can you elaborate on the posts you make here? How do the tools, techniques and finished product differ so that a different section is required?
 

aprice522

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I would like to make a suggestion, if I may?

Would it be possible to have a Topic folder for Hot Process Soap exclusively? I am trying to dig thru hundreds of threads to find threads on the HP.

Thank you.
K. Marvel
Why not just ask if you have done some digging and can't find what you are looking for? That is what I do for CP or HP questions. If I can't find, but tried to search, I feel it is justified to ask! :)
 

kmarvel

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Take away the source of heat (such as a slow cooker) and the tools are totally the same.

Actually, can you elaborate on the posts you make here? How do the tools, techniques and finished product differ so that a different section is required?
All good answers....thank you.

At what temperature for the HP process do you add the colorant and the fragrance??
 

The Efficacious Gentleman

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I don't colour, but when to add the scent depends on the scent itself - one thing that helps is taking it out of the slow cooker in to another big pot to help it cool down evenly.

Keep an eye on it as it cools - I got distracted and it started to set up in my pot! The cooler it is, the harder it will be to pour smoothly, so there is a goldilocks point to find.
 

Susie

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I even make CP in a turned off crock pot if I am making a larger batch...so the equipment can be the same.
 

The Efficacious Gentleman

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I would like to make a suggestion, if I may?

Would it be possible to have a Topic folder for Hot Process Soap exclusively? I am trying to dig thru hundreds of threads to find threads on the HP.

Thank you.
K. Marvel
Its been suggested before any turned down by admin. I agree though, I would like to see separate CP and HP sections.
The only thing about the two processes that I consider similar are the ingredients, I don't think the techniques, tools involved, or finished product are similar. I can understand the thinking about keeping everything under one topic, but I do not agree.
While my previous reply was somewhat combatively formed, it was a genuine question - if the Modmin team do not consider HP and CP to be different enough to warrant a different section but you all think that it does, then please explain why it is so different. Just saying "I think it is different enough" clearly not working.

So, if we use the OliveOil post as an example, in what ways do the techniques, tools and finished product differ to such a degree that another section is required?
 

Obsidian

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For me, the cook is what make a big difference. So much can go wrong and all the stages can look different or even be missing. There is a ton of info on HP but a lot is contradicting.

How much water, how to keep the batter fluid, how much and when to stir, what to do when you over stir and the batter is full of air, when to add scents/SF/additives/. How to swirl the stuff, should you worry about FO flash point or not?

I know CP has the same types of question but those are generally easy to find answers to, having a place for all the HP questions would make everything easier to find. We all know the search function here isn't the greatest.
 

dixiedragon

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I too would like to see HP get its own section. I am curious what the potential downside to this would be?

While many of the ingredients and tools are the same, the techniques and the process are very different and I think that justifies having its own section.
 

galaxyMLP

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This is a bit long winded. I wasn't going to answer but, I figured I should.

When I came here, I was surprised not to see a section for HP. And while I do agree that the starting point is the same, as obsidian said, the cook really does make a difference. I started with HP despite the fact that most people start making CP soap as their first soap. I'm glad I did even though I was lead to believe it was "ready" right away. I learned the truth since but, HP gives you an idea of how CP soap changes during gel and gives you a tool to troubleshoot if your CP goes wrong.

You have people out there saying that HP soap can be used right away or after a week and although it is technically safe to do so at that point, so would any gelled CP soap by that logic. We all know that HP soap benefits from just as long (if not longer) cure than a CP soap. I think having an HP forum could dispel some of these common misconceptions.

There are also people out there making beautiful swirled HP soaps (I see them on FB). There are 2 distinct advantages that HP has over CP that I hear referred to here. Those are that you can use less FO/ work with misbehaving FOs, and you can selectively superfat. And to me there exist two other benefits that for a small apartment are really important. With HP the soap is just that: soap after cooking. This means I can clean my utensils right away without being so worried about caustic burns even with gloves on. I really like the peace of mind it gives me. I also like that I can unmold it as soon as it is hard and cool to the touch, unlike CP where it may take days or more to unmold (although not common with good recipe formulation, water discount and gel)

Another thought:

Certain additives hold different roles in CP vs. HP. Like sodium lactate for example. In CP, it is used as a hardener to unmold soap sooner and preserve fine detail from ornate molds. However, for HP it imparts fluidity to many recipes and makes it pourable instead of just glopping. Honey is also another one; not because the function is different but, because it should be added at a different time. If you add honey at trace or to the oils and HP it you will likely get separation and could have a lot more problems than if you add it after the cook (speaking from experience here).

It looks like in recent years there have been a lot of improvements to HP and more people are leaning towards it. There is something that I really like about HP. The whole thing can be done from weighing everything out to cutting and starting the cure, in 4-6 hours. I like that sense of completion.

Now, I do think that if it does become a new topic that it will have a lot less posts in it. It can also make it more confusing. But, after some time I do think it will be helpful especially with a lot of people turning to HP.

I just think that maybe HP soap can have a lot of factors that aren't fully being investigated here and with all of the critical thinkers I think we can do really great investigations and find some powerful soapy insight. Giving HP soap its own forum might be that push thats needed or at least give it its own place to be easily found. Plus, I think it may reduce some of the same HP soap questions we've been getting.
 

OliveOil2

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I had responded rather quickly to TEG's post regarding there being a very small difference between the two methods because I was on my way to work. (Sorry I can't quote because this feature doesn't work for me). My main point was that they were more than small differences, and not pushing for a separate forum, although I do feel this would be more helpful to new soapers. I have to say that galaxyMLP, Dixidragon, and Obsidian made all of the points that I was thinking of. For me it is the process, or cook that makes a difference. I didn't exactly use the right term when I said 'tools' because a spatula is a spatula. I was thinking of the crock pot, or oven which like TEG said is more of a heating component.
 

The Efficacious Gentleman

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These are good points - there are differences. But what about the similarities? Are they more similar as they different? If we had a hp section and a cp section, where would you post a question that relates to your planned hp batch but is not actually an exclusively hp issue? If you do it in the hp section, would all users go in there, if they don't do hp at all? That would mean that all of the great information relating to this non-exclusive hp issue is not benefiting the 'cp' users who don't look in the hp section.

That for me a big show stopper.
 

galaxyMLP

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TEG, I agree and that is my fear as well. That is why I didn't say anything at first. It will be hard if not impossible to differentiate the two at the beginning stages before and until hitting trace. This will mean we will get two questions about the same thing on 2 different forums.

My other thought would be to create a sticky in the lye based soap forum (or beginners) explicitly for HP soap outlining some misconceptions and ways to trouble shoot. That may also help explain to someone who is first visiting the forum why there is no exclusive HP forum.

Things that might be good to include are differences and similarities between HP and CP, what happens when HP soap behaves badly (volcanoes, how some oils cause them more than others), problems you can get in HP soap in the pot during cook, differences in additives, ect.

It could be something that we work on collectively for a bit and them make into a formal sticky after some of the issues are outlined. I'm not saying it has to be done or anything. Just that it might be helpful. I did feel when I first joined that HP soapers are kinda left out a bit here but, with the new lye based soap forum change I think that wont be the case any more.
 
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MrsSpaceship

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Why is the mod (& admin?) team so against having a HP section. I'm looking at beyond "it's basically the same thing, and it's been discussed and we decided against it, end of discussion."

Are there technical holdups? Would the entire site have to go down to add an additional sub-forum?

You have a sub-forums for book reviews, for crafts tutorials, and suppliers that don't get a lot of traffic. Someone asked, and they received, so there must be some very compelling reason why a HP sub-forum is not an option.

ETA: I was typing when Galaxy posted, and it added some clarification.
While I still think that a HP sub-forum would be lovely, I think a sticky would be very beneficial at the least.
 
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The Efficacious Gentleman

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Technically it is very simple. That is not the issue.

To take one example from your list, it would be akin to having a 'hardback book' and 'paperback book' section - where would you ask a question about books that related to both? Not IN both, certainly. So in which one?
 

IrishLass

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Why is the mod (& admin?) team so against having a HP section.

Speaking only for myself as one part of the modmin team who does both CP and HP (albeit mainly CP) here are my thoughts based on my own experiences:

My CP and HP batches use the exact same ingredients and the exact same tools as each other (even my soaping pot), and they produce the same kind of end-product- lye-based bar soap.

I bring my HP batches to trace exactly the same way as I bring my CP batches to trace.

From there, instead of pouring the batter into my mold, I leave it in my pot and stick it in the oven to heat it though the gel stage to zaplessness at 170F. I might have to make adjustments in how I use scent and color in HP, but by the same token, I make all kinds of adjustments with scent and color when only doing CP as well.

By the way, 170F is the same temp that several people actually use for CPOP to force their CP batches to gel, only their soap is in a mold instead of a pot, which then begs the question- should we also have a separate CPOP section?

And what about re-batching? That process has a different beginning point than either HP or CP. Should we also have a separate section for that even though the end result is lye-based bar soap?

But wait- what about milk soaping? Different considerations must be taken into account when using milk whether via CP or HP, and there's more than one type of technique/method of milk soaping whether you CP or HP. Should there be a separate section for that, too, even though the end result is lye-based bar soap?

I really and truly don't mean to sound like a Petulant Patty, but do you see where I'm going with this? Too much 'specialization/compartmentalization ' gets to be...well... much to too much, and it has the potential of causing more problems than it solves. A line has to be drawn somewhere, and after much discussion we modmins decided the best and simplest way was to draw it at lye-based bar soap.

To me, the KISS principal is the way to go with this, because the overlap between CP and HP is just too much to warrant splitting them up into separate sections.

Not only that, but it would be a tremendous amount of work for us to have to go back and sort through 7 of 8 years of threads to separate out all the HP threads from the CP threads to bring them over to an HP section. Relle had to do something similar when the liquid soap forum was created, and let's just say that even if we were paid for our modmin duties here, you couldn't pay me enough to do that task myself, nor pay me enough to request that task be done by any one of the other modmins, especially since I think Relle is still dealing with the migraines from that.

I don't know if y'all have taken a look at the Dish Forum, one of the biggest and longest running soap forums on the web, but they have only one section for lye-based soap, be it CP, HP, or even liquid soap. All 3 of them are lumped together into the one section and it has always been so, and although I love having our separate liquid soap section here at SMF and am happy to defend it because liquid soap is so much different from bar soap that it warrants it's own section, I can see why the Dish organized their categorization scheme the way they did. It just makes things simple and eliminates the potential for confusion that having too much overlap brings.

I don't know if y'all have seen our Stickie here entitled, 'How To Search SMF Like A Pro', but it's awesome. The link included in the Stickie works better than our own forum Search engine. For example, if you have a question about adding colorants to HP, you just click on this link http://sitecomber.com/ and type in the 'for' box something as simple and generic as HP colorants add, and then type soapmakingforum.com in the 'within' box an hit enter. It will take you to every specific post in our forum having to do with adding colorants in HP soap.


IrishLass :)
 
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MrsSpaceship

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Irish Lass,

Thank you for taking the time to write that. In my browsing the matter, the reasoning has come across as the "because we said so, that's why" from frustrated parents, so I appreciate your response helping with the understanding. You as well EFG, well put.

While I must admit that I would still like to see a sub-forum for HP, I have a better understanding of the reasons against it. However, if it ever does get to the point where separate sub-forum would be in order, keep me in mind as a volunteer to assist with the carry over, no sense in causing Relle to have an aneurysm from the strain of it. :)

I do utilize sitecomber quite often, but it's still rather luck of the draw on what you pull up, especially if you don't know enough to narrow your results, so the suggestion that individuals that are well versed in HP could be asked to create a HP sticky to help people get started would be a huge boon in lieu of a separate sub-forum.


ETA: Words
 

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