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BlackBoar

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Hey I don't quite know how to put this but I'd like some advice if you can spare some. I won't go into detail (they might be on this forum). I got a product from a soaper that was watermelon scented, and it smelt how you'd expect. But on their label it was listed as "essential oil blends".

In the review (not posted yet) I make mention of the fact that I don't think that watermelon occurs in nature. I don't explicitly say what I think of the labeling. I also point out the fact that although they don't use honey, to be vegan friendly, they use silk which is made by silk worms which are also killed in the process of production.

I mentioned it in more of a non judgmental way but I'm wondering if this is going to get me in hot water? Where do you draw the line between honesty and, well, being a jerk?

From what I've heard, being at all critical of other soapers, especially when you are a newb, is a big no no. I did, however, record the review more as a consumer.

edit: Btw, I loved the product regardless.
 
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snappyllama

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I think mentioning that there is no such thing as watermelon essential oil is fine. I'd stick to the consumer side of things. You really cannot argue against "you put an ingredient on your product which I bought that doesn't exist in this universe". I'd phrase it nicer than that though. ;)

There is silk available that is harvested after the moths leave their cocoons. I think it's called peace silk or something to that effect. Some vegetarians would be fine with it (maybe some vegans - though that would be less likely). They *could* have been using silk sourced that way.
 

TeresaT

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I'm not exactly sure what you are saying. I think you mean the product was labeled (1) as vegan and (2) being made with essential oils (not fragrance oils), right? I don't know of any watermelon essential oil, either. To get that smell, I believe you would have to use a fragrance oil. However, there are some companies that sell fragrance oil/essential oil blends. So, technically speaking, if the watermelon scent was created using one of these type fragrances, labeling it as an "essential oil blend" would be accurate (although misleading, IMO). I have used "Crafter's Choice" Chamomile Lavender Fragrance/Essential Oil Blend. It smells wonderful; but it is neither a true essential oil, nor a true fragrance oil. If I were to sell my products (which I do not) I would list it as "fragrance" on the label and leave it at that.

Silk would not be vegan. Any animal product, including honey and beeswax, wouldn't be. However, the "silkworms" aren't killed in the production of silk. (They're not even worms, they're caterpillars.) The silk is the cocoon the caterpillars (incorrectly called a worm) spins in order to pupate. Once the metamorphosis occurs, the moth emerges from the cocoon, mates, lays eggs and dies. Unfortunately, since the majority of silkworms are captive bred, the moths no longer fly away and live their (very short life span) in the wild. It is this cocoon that is boiled and turned into the silk we use for soap and cloth. A silk farmer would have to be daft to kill off their worms; they wouldn't have any subsequent generations to harvest. (I once toyed with the idea of raising silkworms. Then realized I don't have the time or patience for it. But the whole process still fascinates me, so some day I may re-visit my silk farming. Instead, I did vermicomposting. That didn't go over too well either. I starved my poor wormies!! One person just doesn't produce enough veggie matter to support vermicomposting.)

I think the problem with reviews in general are people are not actually reviewing the product. They are giving their opinion of the way it looks or smells or if it matches the color of their eyes, etc. I've seen reviews of products that went something like: "This stinks! I'll never buy from this company again. They won't even give me a refund for this garbage." OK. That's not a review of a product. That's one person's (negative) opinion of a fragrance. I think. I don't remember what they were "reviewing."

A review of the product would be how it works. Does it work as described? Does it look as described (correct weight, color, etc). If it is soap, does it lather? Does it get you clean? Does it take the hide off of you? Does it leave you feeling dry? Does it rinse well? Addressing issues such as labeling after purchasing a product is not part of a product review. I believe that is something that should be addressed privately with the seller. If the web site (or where ever you purchased the product) had the ingredients listed then you knew you were purchasing a watermelon scented vegan product made with an essential oil blend and silk. If you had any doubts or issues with the ingredients those should have been addressed with the seller before the purchase was made. However, if the product was not correctly identified prior to purchase, then IMO, you have a legitimate issue to present to the seller and can request a refund. And I think it would be perfectly within your right as a consumer to include that information in your review of the product to warn others that may be planning to purchase the product expecting it to be vegan and contain only essential oils.

I don't know of any rules, real or not, not being critical of other soapers. I know on this forum, and in life in general, it is considered quite rude to bash someone for their practices especially if they are unable to defend themselves. As a consumer, you can leave a review of any product you would like. You can do that here, too. Just make sure if you are critical or negative, you can take the heat when it turns on you. I'm not one to mince words. I tend to be blunt and to the point. Which gets me into trouble. A LOT. However, I appreciate it when people are honest and straightforward with me. I firmly believe in: "Don't tell me what you think I want to hear. Tell me the truth." The signature line on my email at work is: "I always tell the truth. Sometimes, the truth hurts worse than a frying pan to the face."

I hope this helped you a little bit. If not, that figures. I'm just babbling on again...
 

BlackBoar

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Thank you for the responses.
I had very briefly researched silk production and although you can take the silk from discarded pods, in large production what they do is they wait for the caterpillars to cocoon and then kill them while they are inside because when they eat their way out of it they damage the silk and shorten the overall length of it. At least, that's what I heard. But you clearly have way more personal knowledge of how it's produced.

Actually, the purchases were made with the intent to learn the craft myself, and although you can find lots of stuff online and in books, I like the idea of supporting and promoting artisans. So it's more like I was observing what the other crafters were doing. How they substituted beeswax, did they have SLS in the bath bomb, what oils were used in the soap. Except very very beginner. The explanation about the "essential oil blends" makes perfect sense to me and that seems like a totally acceptable explanation. I didn't want to also be wrong in thinking that watermelon didn't exist in nature.
 

Misschief

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I didn't want to also be wrong in thinking that watermelon didn't exist in nature.
Not to be critical, just tongue in cheek here..... Watermelon certainly does exist in nature; if it doesn't, I wonder what I'm having with my Mother's Day dinner later today. :wink:

Watermelon essential oil, on the other hand, doesn't.
 

cmzaha

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Silk would not be vegan. Any animal product, including honey and beeswax, wouldn't be. However, the "silkworms" aren't killed in the production of silk. (They're not even worms, they're caterpillars.) The silk is the cocoon the caterpillars (incorrectly called a worm) spins in order to pupate. Once the metamorphosis occurs, the moth emerges from the cocoon, mates, lays eggs and dies. Unfortunately, since the majority of silkworms are captive bred, the moths no longer fly away and live their (very short life span) in the wild. It is this cocoon that is boiled and turned into the silk we use for soap and cloth. A silk farmer would have to be daft to kill off their worms; they wouldn't have any subsequent generations to harvest. (I once toyed with the idea of raising silkworms. Then realized I don't have the time or patience for it. But the whole process still fascinates me, so some day I may re-visit my silk farming. Instead, I did vermicomposting. That didn't go over too well either. I starved my poor wormies!! One person just doesn't produce enough veggie matter to support vermicomposting.)
I agree with what Theresa had to say.

As to silkworms, yep they are caterpillars, and Vegans will usually not buy anything with silk. Many toss the silk cocoons in boiling water which results in killing the pupae inside or they can be freeze dried. If the moth emerges it ruins the cocoon for harvesting the silk. When the moth emerges it leaves the hole and a large stain on the cocoon. Theresa raising silkworms is not hard or necessarily time consuming but they are voracious eaters like most caterpillars so it takes a lot of chow or mulberry leaves. They can live quite well on the available silkworm chow but will not always cocoon. I have and am raising some again for feeders. I remember in the past my chow raised silks would very seldom cocoon, but I would get cocoons with the mulberry leaf raised silks. Of course I was not raising to acquire cocoons.
 

BlackBoar

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Not to be critical, just tongue in cheek here..... Watermelon certainly does exist in nature; if it doesn't, I wonder what I'm having with my Mother's Day dinner later today. :wink:

Watermelon essential oil, on the other hand, doesn't.
I thought watermelons were invented at plum island during WWII??! I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S REAL ANYMORE
 

newbie

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Cruelty free silk is the silk from cocoons after the moth has eaten it's way out and emerged. For the fabric industry, they do kill the pupae and then do whatever it is they do to unwind the silk so they have the longest run of fiber possible. Because it's cheaper, I would think most soapers would get the cruelty-free kind but, as others have stated, I doubt vegans would use it and the soap shouldn't be labeled as vegan.

If you want to leave a review with some preferably constructive criticism, you should balance it with the things you like about the product.
 

LisaAnne

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Don't tell me what you think I want to hear. Tell me the truth." The signature line on my email at work is: "I always tell the truth. Sometimes, the truth hurts worse than a frying pan to the face."

Absolutely. I tell the truth and expect the truth.

But like Teresa said be prepared for backlash if you decide to publicly correct another, soaper or not .
I recently dropped out of every soaping Facebook forum I was in (every one I found I joined).
I honestly and openly confronted a very obvious lie and an ugly untrue statement stating anyone who disagreed with her was racist. The backlash was huge, my personal mail was flooded with angry defenders. It just reminded why I have avoided social media and the drama that usually follows. I now keep my statements few and far between. Don't misunderstand me, I can handle backlash, I just choose not to. It's all too petty.

Looks like I needed to get that off my chest!
 

Kamahido

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A quick trip to etsy.com quickly reaffirms my belief that people just don't care about their own labels or following the rules. Sad...

https://www.etsy.com/listing/239063080/pine-tar-soap-eczema-soap-psoriasis?ref=shop_home_active_13

1. Packaging is misleading and mislabeled as Pine Tar is not a majority of the ingredients used as stated by the FTC.
2. Does not have weights in lower third of packaging in Imperial or Metric.
3. Ingredients are incorrectly labeled. There is no such thing as "Saponified Olive Oil" as pertains to labeling.
4. Listing title makes medical claims as forbidden by the FDA.
5. Listing shows Goat's Milk as first ingredient which differs from the cigar band label.

This person has, according to etsy, made hundreds of sales and really should know better. But I suppose you have to CARE to do things right.
 
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JuneP

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I use Tussah silk, which is supposed to be the harvested silk after the caterpillars have emerged from their cocoons. There is also bamboo silk but I haven't tried that yet and I assume that would be fine for a vegan soap.
 

TeresaT

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I agree with what Theresa had to say.

As to silkworms, yep they are caterpillars, and Vegans will usually not buy anything with silk. Many toss the silk cocoons in boiling water which results in killing the pupae inside or they can be freeze dried. If the moth emerges it ruins the cocoon for harvesting the silk. When the moth emerges it leaves the hole and a large stain on the cocoon. Theresa raising silkworms is not hard or necessarily time consuming but they are voracious eaters like most caterpillars so it takes a lot of chow or mulberry leaves. They can live quite well on the available silkworm chow but will not always cocoon. I have and am raising some again for feeders. I remember in the past my chow raised silks would very seldom cocoon, but I would get cocoons with the mulberry leaf raised silks. Of course I was not raising to acquire cocoons.
Obviously I missed that back in "silkworm 101." If they're killing the pupae, how the heck are they getting more critters? That doesn't make any sense to me. You've got to let the moth leave the cocoon to mate and lay eggs to get the next generation of cocoons. Hmmm, maybe I was traumatized by the thought boiling of live creatures, blocked that out and THAT is what ended my interest in raising silkworms... (Doubt it, though. I eat lobster. :?)
 

SplendorSoaps

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I use Tussah silk, which is supposed to be the harvested silk after the caterpillars have emerged from their cocoons. There is also bamboo silk but I haven't tried that yet and I assume that would be fine for a vegan soap.
Soap Queen has a nice post about Tussah silk here: https://www.soapqueen.com/bramble-berry-news/sunday-night-spotlight-liquid-silk-tussah-silk-fibers/

You can also get Tussah silk at SMR: http://www.soap-making-resource.com/tussah-silk.html

Long story short, it wouldn't be vegan, but it could be considered cruelty-free.
 
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