Homemade Vanilla Stabilizer?

[Zany_in_CO]

Will it be a game changer for some, will it allow some people to use VCS now, where they couldn't before because of the cost.

That would apply to me. I've never used VCS... for two reasons: (1) I don't soap with vanilla FO all that often. (2) From what I've read, it isn't all that effective so I learned to accept the brown.

I was also wondering how fast this will spread to the soap making community at large and outside of this forum. Or will it go no further than this forum.

When you consider we have (on average) 35 members posting daily and 500 "Lurkers" daily, it is very likely to catch on throughout the soap making community, sooner rather than later. Your results are impressive. Keep up the good work!

 

[Todd Ziegler]

That would apply to me. I've never used VCS... for two reasons: (1) I don't soap with vanilla FO all that often. (2) From what I've read, it isn't all that effective so I learned to accept the brown.

When you consider we have (on average) 35 members posting daily and 500 "Lurkers" daily, it is very likely to catch on throughout the soap making community, sooner rather than later. Your results are impressive. Keep up the good work!

Thank you. Now you can afford to use some FO's that have a little vanillin in them.

I have one more test that I am going to do in the next few days. I have been using the VCS at a 1:1 rate but I am going to try 0.5:1 rate. Then I am going to match the percentage of the vanillin content and the VCS. For example; if the recipe calls for 6ozs of FO and the FO contains 10% vanillin, then I will use 10% of 6ozs which will be 0.6% VCS.

I want to find out if you have to use 1or 0.5 :1 ratio. If I can use less and still get good results then that will lower the cost.

 

[TheGecko]

@Todd Ziegler

First of all...thank you for your willingness to experiment and an even bigger thank you for sharing your experiments with us. May I suggest patenting the Ziegler Vanilla Color Stabilizer...I would be happy to donate to the cost.

Second...I am sorry that I had previously ignored this thread. Given the exorbitant cost of VCSs, I had simply embraced the brown. And even the idea of a 'homemade' VCS wasn't enough to tempt me for the same reason I don't make bath bombs...too many 'non-soaping' ingredients. But in the thread "Working with Discoloring FOs", your Homemade VCS came up again and I starting thinking my Autumn Harvest FO and how I had to toss out my original design idea because of how very, very brown it discolors (dark chocolate). And so here I am...and just three ingredients, one I already have?!? Okay then.

Third...curiosity question. @glendam mentions using ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin) which I understand is a natural antioxidant extract. Would either of you, and/or @DeeAnna recommend it's usage with your formula, and if so, at what rate? Also, where would be the best place to purchase it (I search Amazon and got a ton of results).

Thank you again.

 

[Todd Ziegler]

@Todd Ziegler

First of all...thank you for your willingness to experiment and an even bigger thank you for sharing your experiments with us. May I suggest patenting the Ziegler Vanilla Color Stabilizer...I would be happy to donate to the cost.

Second...I am sorry that I had previously ignored this thread. Given the exorbitant cost of VCSs, I had simply embraced the brown. And even the idea of a 'homemade' VCS wasn't enough to tempt me for the same reason I don't make bath bombs...too many 'non-soaping' ingredients. But in the thread "Working with Discoloring FOs", your Homemade VCS came up again and I starting thinking my Autumn Harvest FO and how I had to toss out my original design idea because of how very, very brown it discolors (dark chocolate). And so here I am...and just three ingredients, one I already have?!? Okay then.

Third...curiosity question. @glendam mentions using ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin) which I understand is a natural antioxidant extract. Would either of you, and/or @DeeAnna recommend it's usage with your formula, and if so, at what rate? Also, where would be the best place to purchase it (I search Amazon and got a ton of results).

Thank you again.

I'm glad you found the thread and are going to give it a try.

I would never patent the formula because first, I wasn't the only one involved with making it, 2nd it is meant for the soaping community and the satisfaction of helping others is its own reward. Everyone can pay me by sending pictures of their successes.

On the ROE, I use it in all my oils but I add it to the bottle of oil that I store them in, so that the unused portion lasts longer. So far I have not had a problem with any of the soap that I have used the homemade VCS in. You can definitely add it as you use it but you get more of a benefit by adding it to the source bottles of oil.

This is the recipe that I used to make the VCS.

3ozs metabisulfate, 3ozs thiosulfate in 10ozs of distilled water

I have someone who is going to help me with turning those numbers into percentages and I will put it in the summary thread.

Most people and me use it at a 1:1 ratio which works well for FO's with vanillin in it that go to dark brown. For FO's without vanillin but still discolor the soap you can lower it to 1/2:1. If the FO has vanillin in it but the end color is light tan or a dark tan you can match the percentages.
For example, I have an FO that has 3% vanillin in it but it only gets a light tan color. So I use 3% of the total FO amount. If my recipe calls for 10ozs of FO then 3% VCS would be 3ozs.

If you don't understand what l said please just ask me because I know I am not great at numbers.

 

[AliOop]

@Todd Ziegler thanks for explaining how much to use. However, I think what you refer to as 3% VCS would actually be 30%, since 3oz (of the VCS) equals 30% of the 10oz (of FO).

But that hurts my brain to try and apply that to more difficult sets of numbers. Hopefully someone who is better at putting formulas together will jump in and help us here! @TheGecko, as an accountant, can you help us, please??

 

[Todd Ziegler]

@Todd Ziegler thanks for explaining how much to use. However, I think what you refer to as 3% VCS would actually be 30%, since 3oz (of the VCS) equals 30% of the 10oz (of FO).

But that hurts my brain to try and apply that to more difficult sets of numbers. Hopefully someone who is better at putting formulas together will jump in and help us here! @TheGecko, as an accountant, can you help us, please??

Yes that would be right but and I can't stress this enough, it is only when the FO colors the soap a light tan or yellow. Which can be caused by something other than vanillin too. If you don't feel comfortable with that little of VCS then please use a 1:1 ratio because it won't hurt your batch and it's better to error on the side of caution.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I’m also late to the party because I have mostly embraced the brown, but this is an amazing thread. Thank you Todd for leading the way. I’ve been wanting to make a Cherry Garcia soap for soooo long, but it needs to be mostly white and the FOs are so high in vanillin that I’ve left them sitting around taunting me for a year. I think I will give this kitchen chemistry VCS a try.

 

[Todd Ziegler]

I’m also late to the party because I have mostly embraced the brown, but this is an amazing thread. Thank you Todd for leading the way. I’ve been wanting to make a Cherry Garcia soap for soooo long, but it needs to be mostly white and the FOs are so high in vanillin that I’ve left them sitting around taunting me for a year. I think I will give this kitchen chemistry VCS a try.

Actually @AliOop took the first step and I just ran with it.

I have used it in soap with TD and mica soap and so far it has held up. However I do believe that gelling plays a role in it.

I have had 3 batches that I didn't get to 130°F and they had a little discoloration around the outside at the coolest part of the soap. But the discoloring seems to disappear after a week or so during curing. This is just anecdotal evidence and I have not done a controlled test for it. If you look at the side by side comparison picture that I posted a few days ago, you can just how well it is working so far.

 

[glendam]

@Todd Ziegler

First of all...thank you for your willingness to experiment and an even bigger thank you for sharing your experiments with us. May I suggest patenting the Ziegler Vanilla Color Stabilizer...I would be happy to donate to the cost.

Second...I am sorry that I had previously ignored this thread. Given the exorbitant cost of VCSs, I had simply embraced the brown. And even the idea of a 'homemade' VCS wasn't enough to tempt me for the same reason I don't make bath bombs...too many 'non-soaping' ingredients. But in the thread "Working with Discoloring FOs", your Homemade VCS came up again and I starting thinking my Autumn Harvest FO and how I had to toss out my original design idea because of how very, very brown it discolors (dark chocolate). And so here I am...and just three ingredients, one I already have?!? Okay then.

Third...curiosity question. @glendam mentions using ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin) which I understand is a natural antioxidant extract. Would either of you, and/or @DeeAnna recommend it's usage with your formula, and if so, at what rate? Also, where would be the best place to purchase it (I search Amazon and got a ton of results).

Thank you again.

I got it (ROE) at Wholesale supplies plus. First to avoid DOS but also to see if it helps in a small way to avoid the discoloration along with the thiosulfate. I do believe it helps bc I am waiting for a fragrance to discolor and it hasn’t discolored as bad as it did the first time, in the portion of the soap where I did not use thiosulfate.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

+1 to @AliOop for getting the ball rolling!

 

[AliOop]

Thanks, but I can't take much credit for reading an article and then asking folks here if they'd ever tried it.

@Todd Ziegler really did all the heavy lifting, with some great practical help from @glendam, and of course, @DeeAnna!

 

[Todd Ziegler]

I got it (ROE) at Wholesale supplies plus. First to avoid DOS but also to see if it helps in a small way to avoid the discoloration along with the thiosulfate. I do believe it helps bc I am waiting for a fragrance to discolor and it hasn’t discolored as bad as it did the first time, in the portion of the soap where I did not use thiosulfate.

That is good to know. I really appreciate it the input.

I am pretty much convinced that the metabisulfate is the ingredient doing the most work and the thiosulfate is a booster shot taking care of the rest of the discoloring ingredients.

 

[Jersey Girl]

That is good to know. I really appreciate it the input.

I am pretty much convinced that the metabisulfate is the ingredient doing the most work and the thiosulfate is a booster shot taking care of the rest of the discoloring ingredients.

@Todd Ziegler So what percentage would you use of metabisulfate if using only that? Would this be the stuff I would need?

https://www.amazon.com/Duda-Energy-meta05-Sodium-Metabisulfite/dp/B004NKZBPC/ref=sr_1_2?crid=344A4GHPC8RID&dchild=1&keywords=metabisulfate+powder&qid=1606574670&sprefix=Metabisulfate%2Caps%2C160&sr=8-2

 

[Todd Ziegler]

@Todd Ziegler So what percentage would you use of metabisulfate if using only that? Would this be the stuff I would need?

https://www.amazon.com/Duda-Energy-meta05-Sodium-Metabisulfite/dp/B004NKZBPC/ref=sr_1_2?crid=344A4GHPC8RID&dchild=1&keywords=metabisulfate+powder&qid=1606574670&sprefix=Metabisulfate%2Caps%2C160&sr=8-2

That is the right product.

I'm not good at the percentages on this and I am waiting for someone to respond with help on that. What I can do is give you the numbers that I used.

I mixed 3ozs metabisulfate and 3ozs thiosulfate into 10ozs of distilled water.

If don't have thiosulfate or don't want to use it, I think you will be just fine without. I really believe that the metabisulfate is doing the most work in preventing discoloration.

That is the mix that I have been using for the tests. I do have some percentage numbers that @DeeAnna gave me but I am a little confused about them. If you want to see them, they are in this thread.

I will find those numbers for you.

 

[Todd Ziegler]

To make about 8 fluid ounces of VS, mix 1.84 ounces metabisulfate and 1.84 ounces of thiosulfate in 4.32 ounces of room temperature distilled water. This same mixture in grams -- mix 52.1 grams metabisulfite and 52.1 grams thiosulfate in 138.8 grams distilled water.

 

[DeeAnna]

What Todd said. I'm helping him with the numbers and managed to give wrong advice a little earlier. He's corrected his numbers in Post 155, so all is well now. Here are the correct numbers for his vanilla stabilizer mixture again, just in a little different format --

Your recipe of 3 oz meta (metabisulfate) and 3 oz thio (thiosulfate) in 10 oz water translates to these percentages by weight --

18.8 % meta
18.8% thio
62.4% distilled water

To make approximately 8 fluid ounces (approx 225 mL) of this formulation --

1.5 oz meta
1.5 oz thio
5.0 oz water

Translating to grams, this 8 fluid oz mixture would contain --

42.5 grams meta
42.5 grams thio
141.4 grams water

 

[Todd Ziegler]

Thank you very much! I'm not a good scientist.

 

[AliOop]

Thank you very much! I'm not a good scientist.

Not so! You've done a great job science-ing on this one!

 

[DeeAnna]

Don't apologize for your abilities as a scientist -- you're doing far better than most, Todd. Very few people have the patience to do the methodical testing and evaluation you're doing.

It's also normal procedure to have others review one's calculations. I have to confess when I was in grad school, my major professor corrected my math a few times -- as you can see, I don't always get it right. So you don't need to apologize for that either.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I did a little web hopping this morning with the goal of learning more about the use of sodium thiosulphate and sodium metabisulfite in cosmetics, especially in terms of safe usage rates. Apologies in advance if information here duplicates anything posted above.

First off, an Aussie soap making supplier has posted results after 5 months for MP soap made with homemade vanilla stabilizer (thiosulphate), here:

DIY Vanilla Colour Stabiliser for MP Soap

Using a readily available and relatively cheap chemical called sodium thiosulphate.

www.baysidesoap.com.au

I found a brief discussion of use of thiosulphate and sodium metabisulfite for lotion at this link: sodium thiosulphate....looking to reduce browning (oxidation) with Vanillin — Cosmetic Science Talk

where a poster, Ozgirl, contributed this on why sodium thiosulfate can be listed as fragrance:

“The loophole is probably to do with the IFRA Transparency List.

IFRA Transparency List

IFRA describes two types of ingredients used in fragrances - Fragrance ingredients and Functional ingredients.

Functional ingredients are substances that are not used to provide odor or malodor coverage, but which are essential for the functionality or durability of a fragrance compound – such as an antioxidant, preservative, diluent, solvent or color.

Sodium thiosulfate is listed as being used in fragrances as a functional ingredient so if it is added to your fragrance to stop oxidation you can probably get away with listing the combination (fragrance + sodium thiosulfate) as "fragrance".”

That led me to the IFRA website where I found an August 2019 document from the Cosmetic Ingredient Review Expert Panel (CIR) titled “Safety Assessment of Sulfites as Used in Cosmetics.” I skipped to the end of the long document and on page 52, the conclusion stated is:“The CIR concluded that Sodium Sulfite, Potassium Sulfite, Ammonium Sulfite, Sodium Bisulfite, Ammonium Bisulfite, Sodium Metabisulfite, and Potassium Metabisulfite are safe as used in cosmetic formulations.”

I haven’t been able to find a similar document that specifically discusses sodium thiosulfate/thiosulphate, but found this 2014 CIR document:

https://www.cir-safety.org/sites/default/files/inorganic%20sulfates.pdf

which on page 92, states “... the CIR expert panel concludes Sodium Sulphate to be safe as used in rinse-off formulations, and safe up to 1% in leave-on formulation.”

also, this:

EWG Skin Deep® | What is SODIUM THIOSULFATE

EWG’s Skin Deep rates thousands of personal care product ingredients, culled from ingredient labels on products, based on hazard information pulled from the scientific literature and industry, academic and regulatory databases.

www.ewg.org

As for getting to a standardized formula, the pentahydrate version of thiosulfate, which I’ve read is more shelf stable, has 5 attached water molecules compared with the anhydrous form. I think that means more of it is required to get equivalent concentrations of thiosulfate in a solution compared with using the anhydrous form.