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Homemade Vanilla Stabilizer?

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Todd Ziegler

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That's pretty impressive, Todd!

At exactly 28 days from creation to this update, the
Cotton Candy soap made on 10/25/2020 looks unchanged.
View attachment 51779
It's the only one I could find a before & after picture for, but it's the oldest, so the quite exciting.

You stated you used the solution that was equal parts metabisulfate and distilled water at a 1:1 mix of FO to DIY VS.
And your FO usage in recipe was 6%


For each of the ones picture today, did you use the same VS formula, or were there any differences? I am curious how the mix of the two chemicals are performing.

The one made on 11/9/2020 has a pinkish tinge in the white area surrounding the orange/yellow color. Is that new? It sort of looks like color bleed, but it's the wrong color. I didn't find a before picture, so not sure what it started out looking like. Which DIY VS solution did you use with this one?
View attachment 51783



My agenda for tomorrow is to start the DIY VS tests here; when I get it started I'll post updates here, if that's okay.
Let me clear up what I meant by 50/50. I made separate solutions for the first test batch. Each had 30% of the metabisulfate and thiosulfate, I then mixed equal parts of each solution and that is where the 50/50 comes from.
All the other batches have the 3,3:1 solution. With a 1:1 VS/FO. You can't see it in the new cotton candy picture but the darkning has actually lightened up.

The other picture that you pointed out is just the red that I used for the color.

I have not used the two ingredients separately. I have always used the two together. Now some of the FO's that I have used don't have any vanillin in them but they do alter they do discolor the soap. In the FO's without any vanillin I used 50% VCS of the FO. So if the FO was 4ozs I used 2ozs of VCS.
Todd, all of your soaps looks fantastic! Can't thank you enough for figuring this out and for sharing all your experiments.
You're welcome

I am going to try and make a new post that includes all the pictures together, along with usage amounts.

Did you use the Sodium Metbisulphate only? Turns out the other ingredient on Etsy was $8.50 + $8.50 shipping but it was only 90 grams. That seems expensive given the small quantity so I didn't order it. If I can use just the one that would be ideal. Thanks.
I have not used the metabisulfate by itself. However I think someone else in this thread has but the thread has gotten so long that I am going to do a new summary thread. This way we get all the information that has been collected into one post.

Yes, just the Sodium Metabisulphate.
I really think that using just the metabisulfate by itself will give you the same results. It is my opinion that the thiosulfate is meant for MP soap and not CP soap. However I have not tried the thiosulfate by itself. I am going to do post a summary thread today sometime and if you are interested in contributing to it, just pm me and I will explain more.

Todd, all of your soaps looks fantastic! Can't thank you enough for figuring this out and for sharing all your experiments.
Thanks but your original post is what started everything. So don't forget to take a bow. I am also liking the name "aligoop color stabilizer!

Here is a side by side comparison of how well the homemade VCS is working.
 

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Todd Ziegler

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I was just wondering the other day, about what kind of impact this will have for the hobbyist soap maker, all the way up to those who sell the soap they make.

Will it be a game changer for some, will it allow some people to use VCS now, where they couldn't before because of the cost.

I was also wondering how fast this will spread to the soap making community at large and outside of this forum. Or will it go no further than this forum. Just some thinking.

Oooh, Zigali's Vanilla Stabilizer has a nice ring! ;)
Yeah it really does roll of the tongue nicely. Should we put it up for a vote? 🤔
 

Zany_in_CO

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Will it be a game changer for some, will it allow some people to use VCS now, where they couldn't before because of the cost.
That would apply to me. I've never used VCS... for two reasons: (1) I don't soap with vanilla FO all that often. (2) From what I've read, it isn't all that effective so I learned to accept the brown. :rolleyes:
I was also wondering how fast this will spread to the soap making community at large and outside of this forum. Or will it go no further than this forum.
When you consider we have (on average) 35 members posting daily and 500 "Lurkers" daily, it is very likely to catch on throughout the soap making community, sooner rather than later. Your results are impressive. :thumbs: Keep up the good work!
 

Todd Ziegler

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That would apply to me. I've never used VCS... for two reasons: (1) I don't soap with vanilla FO all that often. (2) From what I've read, it isn't all that effective so I learned to accept the brown. :rolleyes:

When you consider we have (on average) 35 members posting daily and 500 "Lurkers" daily, it is very likely to catch on throughout the soap making community, sooner rather than later. Your results are impressive. :thumbs: Keep up the good work!
Thank you. Now you can afford to use some FO's that have a little vanillin in them.

I have one more test that I am going to do in the next few days. I have been using the VCS at a 1:1 rate but I am going to try 0.5:1 rate. Then I am going to match the percentage of the vanillin content and the VCS. For example; if the recipe calls for 6ozs of FO and the FO contains 10% vanillin, then I will use 10% of 6ozs which will be 0.6% VCS.

I want to find out if you have to use 1or 0.5 :1 ratio. If I can use less and still get good results then that will lower the cost.
 

TheGecko

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@Todd Ziegler

First of all...thank you for your willingness to experiment and an even bigger thank you for sharing your experiments with us. May I suggest patenting the Ziegler Vanilla Color Stabilizer...I would be happy to donate to the cost.

Second...I am sorry that I had previously ignored this thread. Given the exorbitant cost of VCSs, I had simply embraced the brown. And even the idea of a 'homemade' VCS wasn't enough to tempt me for the same reason I don't make bath bombs...too many 'non-soaping' ingredients. But in the thread "Working with Discoloring FOs", your Homemade VCS came up again and I starting thinking my Autumn Harvest FO and how I had to toss out my original design idea because of how very, very brown it discolors (dark chocolate). And so here I am...and just three ingredients, one I already have?!? Okay then.

Third...curiosity question. @glendam mentions using ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin) which I understand is a natural antioxidant extract. Would either of you, and/or @DeeAnna recommend it's usage with your formula, and if so, at what rate? Also, where would be the best place to purchase it (I search Amazon and got a ton of results).

Thank you again.
 

Todd Ziegler

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@Todd Ziegler

First of all...thank you for your willingness to experiment and an even bigger thank you for sharing your experiments with us. May I suggest patenting the Ziegler Vanilla Color Stabilizer...I would be happy to donate to the cost.

Second...I am sorry that I had previously ignored this thread. Given the exorbitant cost of VCSs, I had simply embraced the brown. And even the idea of a 'homemade' VCS wasn't enough to tempt me for the same reason I don't make bath bombs...too many 'non-soaping' ingredients. But in the thread "Working with Discoloring FOs", your Homemade VCS came up again and I starting thinking my Autumn Harvest FO and how I had to toss out my original design idea because of how very, very brown it discolors (dark chocolate). And so here I am...and just three ingredients, one I already have?!? Okay then.

Third...curiosity question. @glendam mentions using ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin) which I understand is a natural antioxidant extract. Would either of you, and/or @DeeAnna recommend it's usage with your formula, and if so, at what rate? Also, where would be the best place to purchase it (I search Amazon and got a ton of results).

Thank you again.
I'm glad you found the thread and are going to give it a try.

I would never patent the formula because first, I wasn't the only one involved with making it, 2nd it is meant for the soaping community and the satisfaction of helping others is its own reward. Everyone can pay me by sending pictures of their successes.

On the ROE, I use it in all my oils but I add it to the bottle of oil that I store them in, so that the unused portion lasts longer. So far I have not had a problem with any of the soap that I have used the homemade VCS in. You can definitely add it as you use it but you get more of a benefit by adding it to the source bottles of oil.

This is the recipe that I used to make the VCS.

3ozs metabisulfate, 3ozs thiosulfate in 10ozs of distilled water

I have someone who is going to help me with turning those numbers into percentages and I will put it in the summary thread.

Most people and me use it at a 1:1 ratio which works well for FO's with vanillin in it that go to dark brown. For FO's without vanillin but still discolor the soap you can lower it to 1/2:1. If the FO has vanillin in it but the end color is light tan or a dark tan you can match the percentages.
For example, I have an FO that has 3% vanillin in it but it only gets a light tan color. So I use 3% of the total FO amount. If my recipe calls for 10ozs of FO then 3% VCS would be 3ozs.

If you don't understand what l said please just ask me because I know I am not great at numbers.
 

AliOop

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@Todd Ziegler thanks for explaining how much to use. However, I think what you refer to as 3% VCS would actually be 30%, since 3oz (of the VCS) equals 30% of the 10oz (of FO).

But that hurts my brain to try and apply that to more difficult sets of numbers. Hopefully someone who is better at putting formulas together will jump in and help us here! @TheGecko, as an accountant, can you help us, please??
 

Todd Ziegler

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@Todd Ziegler thanks for explaining how much to use. However, I think what you refer to as 3% VCS would actually be 30%, since 3oz (of the VCS) equals 30% of the 10oz (of FO).

But that hurts my brain to try and apply that to more difficult sets of numbers. Hopefully someone who is better at putting formulas together will jump in and help us here! @TheGecko, as an accountant, can you help us, please??
Yes that would be right but and I can't stress this enough, it is only when the FO colors the soap a light tan or yellow. Which can be caused by something other than vanillin too. If you don't feel comfortable with that little of VCS then please use a 1:1 ratio because it won't hurt your batch and it's better to error on the side of caution.
 

Mobjack Bay

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I’m also late to the party because I have mostly embraced the brown, but this is an amazing thread. Thank you Todd for leading the way. I’ve been wanting to make a Cherry Garcia soap for soooo long, but it needs to be mostly white and the FOs are so high in vanillin that I’ve left them sitting around taunting me for a year. I think I will give this kitchen chemistry VCS a try.
 

Todd Ziegler

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I’m also late to the party because I have mostly embraced the brown, but this is an amazing thread. Thank you Todd for leading the way. I’ve been wanting to make a Cherry Garcia soap for soooo long, but it needs to be mostly white and the FOs are so high in vanillin that I’ve left them sitting around taunting me for a year. I think I will give this kitchen chemistry VCS a try.
Actually @AliOop took the first step and I just ran with it.

I have used it in soap with TD and mica soap and so far it has held up. However I do believe that gelling plays a role in it.

I have had 3 batches that I didn't get to 130°F and they had a little discoloration around the outside at the coolest part of the soap. But the discoloring seems to disappear after a week or so during curing. This is just anecdotal evidence and I have not done a controlled test for it. If you look at the side by side comparison picture that I posted a few days ago, you can just how well it is working so far.
 

glendam

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@Todd Ziegler

First of all...thank you for your willingness to experiment and an even bigger thank you for sharing your experiments with us. May I suggest patenting the Ziegler Vanilla Color Stabilizer...I would be happy to donate to the cost.

Second...I am sorry that I had previously ignored this thread. Given the exorbitant cost of VCSs, I had simply embraced the brown. And even the idea of a 'homemade' VCS wasn't enough to tempt me for the same reason I don't make bath bombs...too many 'non-soaping' ingredients. But in the thread "Working with Discoloring FOs", your Homemade VCS came up again and I starting thinking my Autumn Harvest FO and how I had to toss out my original design idea because of how very, very brown it discolors (dark chocolate). And so here I am...and just three ingredients, one I already have?!? Okay then.

Third...curiosity question. @glendam mentions using ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin) which I understand is a natural antioxidant extract. Would either of you, and/or @DeeAnna recommend it's usage with your formula, and if so, at what rate? Also, where would be the best place to purchase it (I search Amazon and got a ton of results).

Thank you again.
I got it (ROE) at Wholesale supplies plus. First to avoid DOS but also to see if it helps in a small way to avoid the discoloration along with the thiosulfate. I do believe it helps bc I am waiting for a fragrance to discolor and it hasn’t discolored as bad as it did the first time, in the portion of the soap where I did not use thiosulfate.
 

Todd Ziegler

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I got it (ROE) at Wholesale supplies plus. First to avoid DOS but also to see if it helps in a small way to avoid the discoloration along with the thiosulfate. I do believe it helps bc I am waiting for a fragrance to discolor and it hasn’t discolored as bad as it did the first time, in the portion of the soap where I did not use thiosulfate.
That is good to know. I really appreciate it the input.

I am pretty much convinced that the metabisulfate is the ingredient doing the most work and the thiosulfate is a booster shot taking care of the rest of the discoloring ingredients.
 

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That is good to know. I really appreciate it the input.

I am pretty much convinced that the metabisulfate is the ingredient doing the most work and the thiosulfate is a booster shot taking care of the rest of the discoloring ingredients.
@Todd Ziegler So what percentage would you use of metabisulfate if using only that? Would this be the stuff I would need?
 

Todd Ziegler

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That is the right product.

I'm not good at the percentages on this and I am waiting for someone to respond with help on that. What I can do is give you the numbers that I used.

I mixed 3ozs metabisulfate and 3ozs thiosulfate into 10ozs of distilled water.

If don't have thiosulfate or don't want to use it, I think you will be just fine without. I really believe that the metabisulfate is doing the most work in preventing discoloration.

That is the mix that I have been using for the tests. I do have some percentage numbers that @DeeAnna gave me but I am a little confused about them. If you want to see them, they are in this thread.

I will find those numbers for you.

To make about 8 fluid ounces of VS, mix 1.84 ounces metabisulfate and 1.84 ounces of thiosulfate in 4.32 ounces of room temperature distilled water. This same mixture in grams -- mix 52.1 grams metabisulfite and 52.1 grams thiosulfate in 138.8 grams distilled water.
 

DeeAnna

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What Todd said. I'm helping him with the numbers and managed to give wrong advice a little earlier. He's corrected his numbers in Post 155, so all is well now. Here are the correct numbers for his vanilla stabilizer mixture again, just in a little different format --

Your recipe of 3 oz meta (metabisulfate) and 3 oz thio (thiosulfate) in 10 oz water translates to these percentages by weight --

18.8 % meta
18.8% thio
62.4% distilled water

To make approximately 8 fluid ounces (approx 225 mL) of this formulation --

1.5 oz meta
1.5 oz thio
5.0 oz water

Translating to grams, this 8 fluid oz mixture would contain --

42.5 grams meta
42.5 grams thio
141.4 grams water
 
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