High Water Discount and Slow Trace

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SoapCake

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Hello! I have done a lot of research and experimenting with slowing down trace over the last year in an attempt to have more time with coloring while still pouring at a thinner trace. My recipes have always traced really quickly with only a few short pulses of the stick blender, so I went on the hunt to find ways to slow it down.
One big culprit was my Castor Oil. I use it in every recipe to boost the lather, and when I tried lowering it I found the trace was much more controllable. I now keep it at a maximum of 7% in my recipes.
Another interesting thing I found was some say with a 40% or higher lye concentration it can actually reverse the usual acceleration from water discounting. I tested this theory with a well behaving FO and was surprised to find I had the most time I've ever had to play with my design! This seems to work most of the time, but not always.
The next thing I'm going to play with is temperatures and using a whisk with minimal use of my stick blender. I use a lot of hard oils and based off of my notes I found that soaping around 100F seems to accelerate trace for me. I normally soap around 115F or so and have better luck with this temperature and a 40% lye concentration. But even 15 seconds total stick blending can bring on medium to thick trace quickly for me, even if only bringing to emulsion.
I'm wondering how many of you have also found luck with slower trace with the opposite of what is normally taught, like using a higher lye concentration and higher temperature rather than 100F and under? I'm not a fan of using full water and only do this when working with beer soaps and the like. I don't use beeswax which I know needs a higher temperature (although I do use Palm Kernel Flakes), just palm, coconut (76 degree), cocoa and shea butter for hard oils at around 55-60% total. I've been soaping for nearly a decade and controlling trace still seems to elude me sometimes, it's like there are times where it doesn't seem to follow any rules or behave as expected. Curious to see what has worked for others to slow down trace, aside from the usual tips. Thanks in advance!
 
I control my trace with temperature and ingredients.

I let my oils get below 100°F,usually around 86°F with my lye water colder than that. For me the temperature does not play much of a role in acceleration. I will sometimes soap around 115°F - 125°F in order to reach the gel phase faster but it has never caused any acceleration.

I only have 2 recipes but with different additives it makes 4 different recipes.
All my recipes contain lard, coconut oil, castor oil, palm oil /PKF or PKO and then either high oleic safflower oil or olive oil with lard being 40% of the recipes. These recipes by themselves gives me a lot of time, probably around 15 minutes +/-. However certain FO's will cause acceleration and one FO I have will cause quick acceleration and high temperatures. I know which FO's behave well or bad and I plan accordingly.
 
You do know that lye concentration is the same as a water discount. I too control my trace with lye concentration and knowing my recipes. I don't take temps when soaping. My oils are just warm/melted and my lye is room temp. I have no problem obtaining gel by covering my molds and letting them be alone.
 
You do know that lye concentration is the same as a water discount. I too control my trace with lye concentration and knowing my recipes. I don't take temps when soaping. My oils are just warm/melted and my lye is room temp. I have no problem obtaining gel by covering my molds and letting them be alone.

Yes, of course. That's my question. There was a previous thread with a few people saying that using a high lye concentration/water discount resulted in a slower moving batter. I'm wondering how many others have tested this and found it to be true. From what I read, a 40% lye concentration or higher reverses the usual acceleration from water discounting. With a well behaving FO and 40% lye concentration, I had no acceleration after bringing to thin trace and actually had to blend some more to get it to thicken up to do any textured tops.
 
@SoapCake I don't think you are understanding. Using a 40% lye concentration you are discounting your water. You use less water to get a higher lye concentration. I soap anywhere from 29-35% lye concentration. The lower the concentration the more water you have.

This is your statement above:

40% lye concentration or higher reverses the usual acceleration from water discounting
 
@SoapCake I don't think you are understanding. Using a 40% lye concentration you are discounting your water. You use less water to get a higher lye concentration. I soap anywhere from 29-35% lye concentration. The lower the concentration the more water you have.

This is your statement above:

40% lye concentration or higher reverses the usual acceleration from water discounting
I'm not SoapCake of course, but I get the impression she's using "lye concentration" and "water discounting" interchangably.

I can see her statement being re-worded as "40% lye concentration or higher reverses the usual acceleration from high lye concentration"
which does sound a bit awkward.
 
I'm not SoapCake of course, but I get the impression she's using "lye concentration" and "water discounting" interchangably.

I can see her statement being re-worded as "40% lye concentration or higher reverses the usual acceleration from high lye concentration"
which does sound a bit awkward.

I think so too.
 
One of the first SMF challenges was to make a high water/low water soap, based on Clara Lindberg's crop circle and ghost swirl experiments. The low water portion was made with a 1.4:1 water:lye ratio (41% lye concentration), and the high water portion was made with a 2.4:1 water:lye ratio (29%). The low water portion traced much slower, BUT it is important to use fragrance oils that do not accelerate at all or all bets are off. The higher lye concentration will definitely amplify any acceleration.

Here is a link to that particular challenge if you care to read through it. It also contains links to Auntie Clara's blog about this technique which is well worth a read as well.
 
I'm not SoapCake of course, but I get the impression she's using "lye concentration" and "water discounting" interchangably.

I can see her statement being re-worded as "40% lye concentration or higher reverses the usual acceleration from high lye concentration"
which does sound a bit awkward.
Yes I am using them interchangeably, they are the same thing

Edited to add: I could have said "a 40% lye concentration or higher reverses the usual acceleration from using a high lye concentration" but that sounded weird to me which is why I said high lye concentration/water discount.

Anyhoo, now that that's cleared up, I'm wondering if anyone else uses this method or any other tricks to slow trace. I've used a bit of lecithin in batter that is moving too fast for me, which does help to slow it down. I've read the Auntie Clara Ghost Swirl article before, it is quite interesting. I love her experimentation.
 
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I don't use FOs, and rarely use EOs, so my soaps are most often free of additives that typically accelerate trace. My experience of what consistently accelerates trace is temperature, both of what I guess you could call the pre-emulsion mix (oils and lye solution) and the ambient temperature at which I'm soaping. Trace time being subjective, I've found the exact same ColdProcess recipe that traces at a typical pace will trace much faster if I use the "room temperature method", or if I get impatient and start my CP when my oil temps are at or above 110F. The same CP recipe will also accelerate to pudding in no time when done outside on a hot summer's day. I love to soap outside under our covered porch, but I know I need to soap my goto recipe inside if the outside temp is over 85F.
 
I soap at 33% lye concentration and I use a high % of lard which is very slow moving. Of course, and as stated above, you need well behaving FO's.
 
Hello! I have done a lot of research and experimenting with slowing down trace over the last year in an attempt to have more time with coloring while still pouring at a thinner trace. My recipes have always traced really quickly with only a few short pulses of the stick blender, so I went on the hunt to find ways to slow it down.
One big culprit was my Castor Oil. I use it in every recipe to boost the lather, and when I tried lowering it I found the trace was much more controllable. I now keep it at a maximum of 7% in my recipes.
Another interesting thing I found was some say with a 40% or higher lye concentration it can actually reverse the usual acceleration from water discounting. I tested this theory with a well behaving FO and was surprised to find I had the most time I've ever had to play with my design! This seems to work most of the time, but not always.
The next thing I'm going to play with is temperatures and using a whisk with minimal use of my stick blender. I use a lot of hard oils and based off of my notes I found that soaping around 100F seems to accelerate trace for me. I normally soap around 115F or so and have better luck with this temperature and a 40% lye concentration. But even 15 seconds total stick blending can bring on medium to thick trace quickly for me, even if only bringing to emulsion.
I'm wondering how many of you have also found luck with slower trace with the opposite of what is normally taught, like using a higher lye concentration and higher temperature rather than 100F and under? I'm not a fan of using full water and only do this when working with beer soaps and the like. I don't use beeswax which I know needs a higher temperature (although I do use Palm Kernel Flakes), just palm, coconut (76 degree), cocoa and shea butter for hard oils at around 55-60% total. I've been soaping for nearly a decade and controlling trace still seems to elude me sometimes, it's like there are times where it doesn't seem to follow any rules or behave as expected. Curious to see what has worked for others to slow down trace, aside from the usual tips. Thanks in advance!
That's really interesting! I have found with a similar per cent of hard oils, it does not take all that long to blend by hand instead of stick, maybe fifteen minutes? ...and it definitely gives you longer, unless the fragrance is a proper monster.
 
Need help!
So if I use recipe of:
30% apricot oil
30% Murumuru butter
30% cocoa butter
5% caster oil
5% olive oil (not pomace type)
SF 5%
w:lye at 1:2.3
and using sodium lactate per instructions
Also sugar for lather
No other additives
???How do you think this will affect acceleration? Soaping at 87 temp.
What do you think??? Thanks!
 
Need help!
So if I use recipe of:
30% apricot oil
30% Murumuru butter
30% cocoa butter
5% caster oil
5% olive oil (not pomace type)
SF 5%
w:lye at 1:2.3
and using sodium lactate per instructions
Also sugar for lather
No other additives
???How do you think this will affect acceleration? Soaping at 87 temp.
What do you think??? Thanks!
Hello! For best results, this should probably be its own thread for recipe feedback, instead of in a thread for soaping techniques that work independently of oil makeup. But, since you did stick it in this thread, I'll leave the recipe alone, and advise technique. If you're super worried about acceleration, use a whisk for all your blending. If you're using a fragrance, make sure it's from a reputable source and well-behaved (read it's reviews) and add your fragrance after emulsion, stirring as you do so. You can continue stirring after that to see how fast your recipe and fragrance thicken before you pour. Once you have enough experience to spot emulsion and trace, then start speeding it up with stick-blenders and FOs that you know will accelerate.
Also, all acceleration is relative. My hand bar soap recipe emulsifies and traces faster, probably, than a high lard or a Castile recipe, but I know it's pace and how to identify the different stages of emulsion and trace, and I prepare for each step ahead of time, so I'm rarely pressed for time while I'm working. If I ignored the stages and treated my recipe as if it were a lard soap or a Castile (or just copied the people on YouTube with tubs of batter), I'm sure I could reach thick trace in a minute, un-pourable in 2 minutes at most.
 

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