High Coconut oil soap?

[Nikolye]

hiya,
I've looked a bit through threads and surly this has come up before but i can't find anything. I use coconut oil in a lot of my soaps, not all of them but a lot. I keep it low usually 20% or less because it drys my skin out. But I'm wanting to make a coconut bar with my normal 72 or Rbd i guess it is but also good Virgin stuff that smells like coconut.
was thinking i'd use coconut milk as my liquid, 1 t ppo of desiccated coconut at trace 15-20% coconut oil then maybe another 5-10% of beautiful smelling organic coconut oil also at trace. Now would a soap higher than normal in coconut oil need to be superfatted higher than normal? or would i just keep the base coconut oil down to 10% and and add another 10% of the good smelly raw stuff? does a high superfat usually mellow out a high coconut oil soap? i know people do it in salt bars, but was wondering if you use more in a regular soap would it help or just make it incredibly drying. my coconut oil is much cheaper than alot of my other oils, but in general i keep it low as most people do.

unrelated question, would white clay powder boost my whitening?

 

[shunt2011]

Adding oils at trace does nothing. The lye is active and will take what it wants. So, makes no sense. If using high CO regardless what kind will make a drying soap. You will need to up your SF. You can make a 100% CO with a 15-20% SF. It makes a decent soap. I don't think I would add coconut as it would make a scratchy soap. That's a personal thing. High CO will make a white soap. Clay wouldn't be needed nor would it help much.

Also, the scent isn't likely to carry through either.

 

[Cindy2428]

Using 100% coconut milk as a sub for your water will also add a 1-2% SF. Using milks in your soap will discolor your soap though - coco milk turns a peachy-pink and tans your soap. I would add TD (titanium dioxide) if you want it super white

 

[Arimara]

Using 100% coconut milk as a sub for your water will also add a 1-2% SF. Using milks in your soap will discolor your soap though - coco milk turns a peachy-pink and tans your soap. I would add TD (titanium dioxide) if you want it super white

I haven't had that problem with coconut milk. Interesting.

OP, at this point of my short existence as a soaper, I found that the only way I would use a high coconut oil soap is if it's a salt bar. My only batch is a scratchy epic fail but darn it, I don't find it to be nearly as harsh as regular high coconut oil soaps. They never even gave me hang nails.

 

[topofmurrayhill]

You are not talking about a high coconut oil soap. 30% is perfectly practical, and I would never think to make a high superfat soap just for that. What you have to do however is add more hard oils to compensate. This will create a nice long lasting bar and it will balance out the effect of the coconut oil.

There is a lot of good information on the board but I have noticed that the soapy community falls into fads now and then. Currently it's lard madness and keeping coconut oil to a bare minimum.

Generally I think people avoid balancing recipes in certain ways because they think the conditioning number in Soapcalc is real.

 

[joy.]

If you're trying to use the virgin coconut oil for the coconut scent, it won't work. Natural coconut is a really difficult scent to achieve in soap. At 100% virgin coconut oil, the scent will hold for a bit, but won't last months and months.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Not sure if it is a fad as much as it is the things that people like. Most members like lard and low co recipes, so the majority of the advice goes that way. Some members love 30% co and will of course suggest it. As each person is different, the person receiving the advice should try as many of the options as they need to in order to find what works for them.

As for this recipe, I want to reiterate what Shari said about trace - it doesn't matter if it is trace or right at the start, in cold process it is all the same other than being more steps in the soaping process. There is no difference in the soap itself. You could try hot process and adding the oil after the cook, but as for how much scent would come through, I don't know

 

[topofmurrayhill]

Not sure if it is a fad as much as it is the things that people like. Most members like lard and low co recipes, so the majority of the advice goes that way. Some members love 30% co and will of course suggest it. As each person is different, the person receiving the advice should try as many of the options as they need to in order to find what works for them.

I get you, but that doesn't contradict what I said. Certainly people like what they like and advocate it. But these things are memes that spread in a natural way by communication and imitation. They can also die out.

My perspective is from being on the craft boards since 2005. When I was first on this board I'm not sure if anyone besides maybe Irishlass was here. That's the name that sounded familiar when I came back. She's one of the most experienced soapers around, and that probably has something to do with why her posts here are hands down the best.

People come and go, interests and beliefs change. Who knows the future of the lardinator meme? The animal rights movement is quietly becoming pretty big.

 

[ngian]

Well percentage advices especially for CO is something that is not always easy as the most famous and soluble FAs (Lauric, Myristic) are drying or not, not only by its percentage alone but in combination with how hard or soft the tap water is, what is the percentage of the least soluble FAs in the recipe (Palmitic, Stearic), how sensitive one's skin is and what the climate condition is for the given advice (eg. in summer 30% CO might work OK when in winter 20 - 25% would be better when everything else of the above are the same).

So I guess someone should provide most of the above info so the soaper that wants to get the advice can have a more detailed information that will help me decide prior making soap.

Experiments is also a must for everyone so as to brake the rules / advices and learn by ourselves what works or not for us.

 

[Arimara]

I honestly still believe the conditioning factor of a soap is real; I just don't believe it's what many people think it is. It's definitely fatty acid involved but since the lesser known/prominent fatty acids are rarely brought up, I don't think 'conditioning' could really be explained at present. I rather leave it as something that is.

 

[topofmurrayhill]

I honestly still believe the conditioning factor of a soap is real; I just don't believe it's what many people think it is. It's definitely fatty acid involved but since the lesser known/prominent fatty acids are rarely brought up, I don't think 'conditioning' could really be explained at present. I rather leave it as something that is.

Sure that's totally still a question. There might be a clear cut answer, or not.

 

[Nikolye]

You are not talking about a high coconut oil soap. 30% is perfectly practical, and I would never think to make a high superfat soap just for that. What you have to do however is add more hard oils to compensate. This will create a nice long lasting bar and it will balance out the effect of the coconut oil.

There is a lot of good information on the board but I have noticed that the soapy community falls into fads now and then. Currently it's lard madness and keeping coconut oil to a bare minimum.

Generally I think people avoid balancing recipes in certain ways because they think the conditioning number in Soapcalc is real.

What do you mean by adding more hard oils? isn't coconut considered a hard oil? wouldn't i want to add soft oils to coconut to even the bar out? then you say no need for a high superfat because 30% is acceptable, yeah, i kinda figured that should be ok. thank you

I'd never really know a fad if it smacked me in the face! I dont know any other soapers i use tallow and lard because i can source it free from local farmers. Coconut is in most my soaps because i can buy it in bulk at a reasonable price, but i generally keep it lower because of the same reason i suppose most would? because its drying to my skin.

Using 100% coconut milk as a sub for your water will also add a 1-2% SF. Using milks in your soap will discolor your soap though - coco milk turns a peachy-pink and tans your soap. I would add TD (titanium dioxide) if you want it super white

I've actually had this happen, My first milk soap went very very orange brown, the second one only slightly tan and my third time i used frozen solid milk and it didn't change at all! was that a fluke? i dont know. so i guess its a bit risky to use milk for a white soap when the outcome is so out there! I dont have TD, Its on my "fancy things to soap with" list for my next big order. but i love milk soaps, now i know possibly the extra super fat is why! thank you.

Adding oils at trace does nothing. The lye is active and will take what it wants. So, makes no sense. If using high CO regardless what kind will make a drying soap. You will need to up your SF. You can make a 100% CO with a 15-20% SF. It makes a decent soap. I don't think I would add coconut as it would make a scratchy soap. That's a personal thing. High CO will make a white soap. Clay wouldn't be needed nor would it help much.

Also, the scent isn't likely to carry through either.

ok ok regarding the oils at trace thing.... maybe it makes no sense to someone whom is no longer still learning new things everyday, but for me soap knowledge just keeps getting crammed in. i just figured lye and oils do their thing and the leftover oil that has no lye partners ends up being your superfat, so wouldn't the last oils combined into the soap batter be the most likely candidate to not have a lye partner and end up your superfat oils? i probably have it totally wrong, but it seemed logical When i first started soaping i read alot about adding higher quality oils at trace, is this one of those things that is personal preference or actual science says its pointless but has still become (like topofmurrayhill mentioned), another soaping "fad?"
I have always added my oils at the same time, but just recently started buying some more luxurious oils and i wanted them to have a chance to be the most "useful" but if its just an annoying extra step, I'm happy to go back to all at once!

Its also trial and error with me as any soaper. I get off the forums with a clearer idea of what i face or sometimes i scratch a bar altogether because of the feedback i've got. But even so, I'll get back to those bars eventually when i've gotten to that depth. everyday's a school day when you soap.

 

[topofmurrayhill]

What do you mean by adding more hard oils? isn't coconut considered a hard oil? wouldn't i want to add soft oils to coconut to even the bar out? then you say no need for a high superfat because 30% is acceptable, yeah, i kinda figured that should be ok. thank you

You could call it a hard oil, but more importantly coconut oil is a lauric oil or a cleansing oil or whatever you care to call it. Bottom line, it makes a lot of bubbles. It's good for lather but can be drying to the skin.

The drying effect isn't balanced by soft oils. Hard oils help keep it under control by creating a firmer bar that doesn't disperse coconut oil soap so quickly. What I mean by hard oils is those with palmitic and stearic acids like palm oil and tallow.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

As for the "adding oils at trace", we can take 24 to 48 hours as a time frame for saponification, unless heat is added or removed for one reason or another. So in that time between adding the lye to the oils, we might take 30 minutes as a time, which is a common time taking in to account a balanced recipe.

So from combination to trace is at most 1/48 of the time (30mins/24hours) which is really nothing at all. Even being very generous and saying that it is 1/24 of the time, that is still no time at all. Even then, trace is the point where saponification is starting up not where it is coming to end or whathaveyou.

 

[shunt2011]

What TEG said. Trace is just the very beginning of the process. Saponification takes time and that is when the true reaction takes place. Generally 8-72 hours depending on if you are gelling or not. So, the lye takes whatever it wants and leaves what it doesn't want to eat.

 

[Cindy2428]

If you truly want to super fat with a specific oil, you need to hot process your soap. This way, all of your soap has cooked/gone through saponification and the oil you add will not be affected by the lye.