Hi from Portland, Oregon

[Hazel]

You're welcome!

Olive oil would eventually cure hard.

This is just my opinion (again) but I'd replace the PKO with CO and have a total percentage of 15% with it. Then I'd replace the palm with tallow. I think it would make a nice soap. It's not going to be a brick because of the conditioning. That's just a sacrifice you have to make - harder bar, less conditioning, softer bar, more conditioning. Of course, using a greater lye discount would affect the conditioning. You could increase the tallow and just use a larger discount.

You could adjust percentages for the next batch if it isn't quite what you want. This might take some experimentation to get to your goal of hard bar with high conditioning.

 

[Marya]

On another note, I may eventually want to do away with tallow too. I just have such a hard time because with palm (I know I said I wouldn't go into it here) you're hurting very intelligent animals as well as people and the planet, and with free-range tallow you're contributing to the harm of animals as well... only I do eat meat (don't always like the fact that I do, but alas, I do) - but I eat free-range meat so I tell myself that if I'm using the meat anyway (essentially) or someone else is, and this is a bi-product of the meat, then it's not as wasteful... and if the cows were free-range then they weren't - in theory - tortured the way the rain forest animals are re. the palm oil. Plus I'd be helping out a small-ish farmer. This is all what I tell myself, mind you. It's all different degrees of gruesome I suppose, any way you cut it (to the animals anyway!) but, unless I stop eating meat, I might as well be practical about it.

Sorry - this is probably way more than you wanted to know. I just felt the need to explain myself - and I hope that hardly anyone's reading this besides you because I don't mean to start up a big controversy and make anyone feel the need to defend himself/herself. I DO NOT judge anyone here who uses palm. I still use it myself, just not in recipes. Meaning it's near impossible to avoid using because it's in SO many foods and cosmetics, shampoos, etc. We probably don't use much food-wise cause we don't buy a whole lot of processed foods anymore, but we certainly do some of the time and hey - it's almost Halloween and you KNOW those candy bars have palm in it. And I don't think I would have stopped using it in soaps had I not seen a documentary on TV called Orangutan Island (I think it was on Animal Planet) about palm oil, the burning of the forests and the orangutans. It was all about a woman from Denmark who started as I think a flight attendant then fell in love with orangutans and rain forest on a volunteer job she took on in Indonesia. So she discovered what was happening and moved to the island of Borneo there and started a conservancy and now flies in on a helicopter to try to save the orangutans (those left after the burning and clear-cutting) and then brings them to her concervancy where she tries to treat them back to health which can take a long time. Many of them have to be re-trained to live in the forests again - and then she delivers them to a new forest via helicopter. The problem is the forests are being slashed and burned so there are only so many places left. And some of the orangutans just can't be saved - those were really hard to see. I also saw what it was doing to other animals including elephants. It was awful. Anyway, there you have it.

 

[Marya]

Oops! Sorry - I sent my little (not-so-little) rant before seeing you'd responded. If I'd read that first it might have distracted me enough not to go down that rabbit hole, hahaha.

Great advice - thank you!!!

You're welcome!

Olive oil would eventually cure hard.

This is just my opinion (again) but I'd replace the PKO with CO and have a total percentage of 15% with it. Then I'd replace the palm with tallow. I think it would make a nice soap. It's not going to be a brick because of the conditioning. That's just a sacrifice you have to make - harder bar, less conditioning, softer bar, more conditioning. Of course, using a greater lye discount would affect the conditioning. You could increase the tallow and just use a larger discount.

You could adjust percentages for the next batch if it isn't quite what you want. This might take some experimentation to get to your goal of hard bar with high conditioning.

 

[Marya]

Only they say coconut oil is so stripping so here's my question:

If I'm willing to wait for the olive oil to cure, could I do some compromise there? Will it really make such a hard bar (again, using more coconut oil as well if it will help)?

Obviously I need to sit down with the numbers.

Thanks again!

 

[Hazel]

Don't worry about expressing yourself and you didn't have to explain yourself. I've read enough articles, debates, etc on palm so I knew without you saying anything. I still use palm just because I have it. I don't know what I'll do when I run out. I'll have to decide later to do without palm and re-formulate recipes or go with sustainable palm. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

This controversy is the main reason I've started experimenting with lard and tallow. I feel the same way that you do. I have qualms about using them but I also eat meat. It would be hypocritical of me to refuse to use them because I don't think I'll ever completely give up meat. (I tried...found I lacked energy and craved red meat.) I'd also rather use them than see these fats go to waste. It seems like no matter what decision I make, someone will be upset or offended by it.

Yes, a higher percentage of olive does take longer to cure but it's really personal preference. I don't care for olive's lather so I let soap cure at least 6 months - preferably 9 months to over a year depending on the percentage. Other people only cure 4 weeks, 6 weeks and then varying months. It all depends on how you feel about the lather.

Coconut is stripping in higher percentages. Again, personal preference. I have dry skin so I don't like to go higher than 25% unless I add a milk product to increase the superfat or use a larger lye discount. Other people do use a higher percentage because they prefer it (different skin types) or increase the lye discount/superfat. This is something you'll have to experiment with to determine your preference.

Does this info help?

 

[Marya]

It helps a LOT, thank you. And thank you for understanding about my rant. I don't know if I want to wait that long for the olive oil. But hell it's just my own soap - it's not like i'm selling it or anything - so I should just do a couple of versions around the same time and see how they come out! I could try more coconut in one, and a higher lye discount in another, etc. Geez, it's been so long since I made soap that I can hardly remember those details - what lye discount means! I used to understand this stuff really well but I just need to read up a bit and remember if a lye discount means more or less lye (or more or less water). I always use powdered coconut milk so hopefully that helps too with the superfatting.

Thank you again!

Don't worry about expressing yourself and you didn't have to explain yourself. I've read enough articles, debates, etc on palm so I knew without you saying anything. I still use palm just because I have it. I don't know what I'll do when I run out. I'll have to decide later to do without palm and re-formulate recipes or go with sustainable palm. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

This controversy is the main reason I've started experimenting with lard and tallow. I feel the same way that you do. I have qualms about using them but I also eat meat. It would be hypocritical of me to refuse to use them because I don't think I'll ever completely give up meat. (I tried...found I lacked energy and craved red meat.) I'd also rather use them than see these fats go to waste. It seems like no matter what decision I make, someone will be upset or offended by it.

Yes, a higher percentage of olive does take longer to cure but it's really personal preference. I don't care for olive's lather so I let soap cure at least 6 months - preferably 9 months to over a year depending on the percentage. Other people only cure 4 weeks, 6 weeks and then varying months. It all depends on how you feel about the lather.

Coconut is stripping in higher percentages. Again, personal preference. I have dry skin so I don't like to go higher than 25% unless I add a milk product to increase the superfat or use a larger lye discount. Other people do use a higher percentage because they prefer it (different skin types) or increase the lye discount/superfat. This is something you'll have to experiment with to determine your preference.

Does this info help?

 

[Hazel]

You're welcome again! :grin:

Lye discount is just reducing the amount of lye for full saponification - 5% lye discount means you're only using 95% of the lye amount needed for 100% saponification. Some people use the term 'superfat' instead. I sometimes write superfat instead of lye discount. It just depends on how lazy I'm feeling at the time.

Powdered coconut will help slightly. Some of the fat content is removed to make it dry better and be more stable so a little less fat than if you used canned. You don't have to wait months for olive to cure. I'd suggest you try a bar at 4 weeks and see how you like it. You might love it. I just don't like the feel of the lather without a long cure. I did find out that adding some fractionated coconut oil helped to reduce the umm...a nice word...slippery (yeah, slippery, that's it) feel of olive's lather. I wouldn't recommend using all FCO in the recipe. Because even though soapcalc lists it as producing more bubbles than regular CO, I didn't find this accurate in my experiments. Your results may vary. Anyway, I'd suggest adding a little of the regular CO, too.

Yeah, no worries about a rant. Search around on the forum and you'll find several of my rants.

 

[Marya]

Hazel,

Ok will try that! And guess what??? Thanks AGAIN AGAIN!!:crazy::wave:

 

[Hazel]

You're welcome again...I'm glad you found my ramblings helpful. :grin:

 

[Fabius]

Welcome back to soap making.

 

[Marya]

Thank you Fabius!