Help with LS

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madison

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This is my first time making LS, I am using the grated bar soap method with 100% CO, 0 SF, no FO or any additives.
I am using this calculator http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/advanced-calculator-solid-cream-or-liquid-soaps I like to learn how to use it even though this is my first attempt in making LS and this calc. is for advanced soapers.
I am using organic Barlean’s CO from Sam’s; I didn’t like it for cooking so I decided just to use it for soap making.
I plugged 90 % the purity of KOH and 10 % for NaOH, and then I got 3.68 oz of KOH to use and 0.41 oz for the NaOH. Water 12.28 oz.
I need help to clarify some points for me please.
Does the size of the grated bar soap matter? Is there any rule of thumb to follow?
What am I supposed to do with 0.41 oz of NaOH?
How to add citric acid as a chelator?
Thank you in advance.
 
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cmzaha

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Have you made any soap before? I would highly recommend you get a good handle on making bar soap and using the calculators before attempting liquid soap. You do not need to use grated soap when making ls, it will be fine without it. Are you following a Catherine Failor recipe by chance? I know she mentions it somewhere in her Liquid Soapmaking Book. Or at least I think I remember reading it. A 100% coconut ls is not real pleasant to use but the paste makes a great cleaner as does 100% coconut soap whether bar soap or LS
 

IrishLass

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Hi Madison! Please excuse my confusion, but your term 'grated bar soap method' is throwing me off a little. The 'grated bar method' is when one takes a bar of regular soap, grates it up, and then mixes it with water which makes a sort of liquidy goop which is not anywhere as nice as real liquid soap made from scratch. Is it your desire to make that, or to make a true liquid soap from scratch via oils/water/koh that saponifies to a paste, which is then diluted with water to make liquid soap? The two are not the same.


IrishLass :)
 

DeeAnna

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I get the impression your recipe is confusing to you. I'm not surprised because it's confusing to me too. It sounds like you're using a more complicated two-lye method (KOH and a little bit of NaOH) AND you're adding grated bar soap for some yet to be determined reason AND you're making a soap that would normally be used for household cleaning, laundry, or dish washing rather than for bathing.

"...90 % the purity of KOH and 10 % for NaOH..."

Don't confuse lye purity with relative amounts of the two lyes. You're creating a recipe that has both lyes in a 90:10 proportion. Purity of each lye is another matter entirely. SMB doesn't let you change the default purity settings for the lyes, only the relative amounts.

Susie sometimes adds a little bit of grated NaOH soap to her liquid soap batter to help it come to trace quicker. Is that what you mean? If so, it doesn't take much and with a coconut oil soap, it's not really necessary because CO comes to trace easily without any help. What reference are you using that is suggesting this addition?

If you want a 100% coconut oil soap to get rid of the CO you don't like, that's fair enough. But why not make a simpler recipe that will be just as good? ALL KOH. No grated bar soap. And we need to see your recipe in weights, please, to double check your calculations.

As far as sodium citrate, we can help with that too, but let's get the basics figured out first?
 

madison

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Sorry guys for the confusion. Making LS is a big challenge for me, here is the story, I have several tutorials about making LS, one of them is making LS using a grated homemade bar of soap, it’s on the y-tube and there is one whole thread about it here on the forum. I chose this method because I felt it’s the easiest for me as first attempt. I chose the CO because I wanted to start with single oil to keep things simple so I don’t get too frustrated when things go wrong, and for cleaning purposes. I want to feel that making LS is not as hard so I am cheating a little bit to help myself to feel good.
I do have my own handmade bars of soap, I started making my own soap in 2012 when I got some skin problems, I don’t make soap every day though, it’s only a hobby. I use only 3-4 oils maximum, I like to make hard long lasting bars of soap only and I keep things simple. Before I started making soap using NaOH, I tried grating soap bars to make liquid soap and it turned out terrible, I know the only way to make LS is to use KOH.
I have always used the soap Calc. so I am not used to SBM Calc. this is why I am confused about the numbers of NaOH and KOH.
 
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madison

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Don't confuse lye purity with relative amounts of the two lyes. You're creating a recipe that has both lyes in a 90:10 proportion. Purity of each lye is another matter entirely. SMB doesn't let you change the default purity settings for the lyes, only the relative amounts.

That what happened, I did confuse them, I thought that the 90% and 10 % are for the purity and NaOH is related to the amount that is in the bar soap , the 10% seemed inaccurate to me.

Susie sometimes adds a little bit of grated NaOH soap to her liquid soap batter to help it come to trace quicker. Is that what you mean? If so, it doesn't take much and with a coconut oil soap, it's not really necessary because CO comes to trace easily without any help. What reference are you using that is suggesting this addition?


That’s right, Susie is the one who mentioned that in her thread, that’s what I meant. I forgot that the CO comes to trace fast, I made CO bars for grating several months ago and I didn’t need to make more so far. I was thinking to use OO grated bars as I cured a lot of them, is it still ok to do that with CO?

But why not make a simpler recipe that will be just as good? ALL KOH. No grated bar soap. And we need to see your recipe in weights, please, to double check your calculations.
I don’t mind as long as it’s really simple, then I have more chance to succeed, I don’t want to feel anymore that making LS is very hard for me. My recipe is 16 oz CO, I only tried the SBM calc. and got everything wrong.


As far as sodium citrate, we can help with that too, but let's get the basics figured out first?
Thank you, that will be good.
 
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Seawolfe

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Youre mixing cake with soup in a way :)

There are many tutorials online that say you can make liquid soap from grated bar soap. You really cant - its a snotty gloppy mess.

But you can make perfectly good liquid soap using the same oils you use for soap making and KOH instead of NaOH. There are some recipes that recommend a few grams of grated bar soap be added to speed the trace of the liquid soap along, but in those cases the bar soap is really just a catalyst. It's not necessary, just a bit of help along. I'll let the liquid soap queens chime in, but some threads here that helped me a lot were:

Susies easy CP liquid soap thread: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852
The huge Liquid Soap from soapmaking 101 thread: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114
And IrishLass's fabulous thread on making LS with glycerin: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57974
 

madison

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There are many tutorials online that say you can make liquid soap from grated bar soap. You really cant - its a snotty gloppy mess.
I was saying the same thing, my trials turned out terrible; I attempted that before I felt brave enough to use NaOH to make my own bars of soap. Thank you for the links, I read them all when I searched the forum, I found Susie's tutorial the fastest and easiest. I feel lost in the huge 101 liquid soap thread though; I get my head hurting when I read it:)
 
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Seawolfe

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It helped when I realized that liquid soap is made just like hot process soap, but with KOH (unless it's Susie's recipe, but that's still pretty warm). This gives you soap paste (which I store as paste until needed). Then you dilute. The first dilution is a bit of a pain because it's trial and error. But after that you know the dilution ratio for that recipe.

Share the recipe you want to try and people here will help.
 

topofmurrayhill

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FYI she is talking about a Failor technique. The principle is that sodium soap combined with potassium soap dramatically increases lather and foaming. This can be used to good effect making bubble bath or in whatever soap you want to make. She considered the making of a combination soap from scratch too difficult for the book because of issues with the emulsion or whatever, so she talks about grated bar soap being used at 2 to 8 oz ppo as an additive if desired. The technique is to fully dissolve the sodium soap in hot water and combine with the caustic before adding to the oils. Actually it sounds fairly clever.
 

IrishLass

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Thank you, TOMH! You've solved the mystery! I just dusted off my Failor book and had a look, and yep- sure enough- she explains it on page 81. :thumbup:


IrishLass :)
 

madison

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It helped when I realized that liquid soap is made just like hot process soap, but with KOH (unless it's Susie's recipe, but that's still pretty warm). This gives you soap paste (which I store as paste until needed). Then you dilute. The first dilution is a bit of a pain because it's trial and error. But after that you know the dilution ratio for that recipe.

Share the recipe you want to try and people here will help.
Thank you for the hints, I'll share my work with you guys, I need your help :)
And then there is Brewer George's plaintive request for a short n sweet version of LS making and all of our answers to his plea -- http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=58377
That is a great thread, thank you DeeAnna. You made it easier for me, in the back of my mind I always thought that the soap calc isn't that good to calculate LS portions, so I was frustrated with SBM. Now I can use the soap calc since my KOH purity is 90%.I still like to learn how the SBM calc works.
FYI she is talking about a Failor technique. The principle is that sodium soap combined with potassium soap dramatically increases lather and foaming. This can be used to good effect making bubble bath or in whatever soap you want to make. She considered the making of a combination soap from scratch too difficult for the book because of issues with the emulsion or whatever, so she talks about grated bar soap being used at 2 to 8 oz ppo as an additive if desired. The technique is to fully dissolve the sodium soap in hot water and combine with the caustic before adding to the oils. Actually it sounds fairly clever.
I feel more courage to try this method after reading your post, thank you for bringing this up. I am happy that it was mentioned in Failor's book.
IrishLass

I am willing to try your both recipes of LS, I have them printed out. I have been studying them for some time:). Thank you for your time and effort to share your recipes with us.
 
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Susie

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Please don't try a Failor recipe until you have tried the much easier methods on this forum! She was awesome in her time, but we have good lye calculators now. I would hate for you to get scared off of liquid soapmaking before you ever get started!

If you are using SoapCalc.net, just add enough extra water to give you a 1:3 ratio.

That gives me the following recipe:

0% superfat (for a household/laundry soap)
CO 16 oz
KOH 4.57 oz
Water 13.61 oz
 

topofmurrayhill

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Please don't try a Failor recipe until you have tried the much easier methods on this forum! She was awesome in her time, but we have good lye calculators now. I would hate for you to get scared off of liquid soapmaking before you ever get started!

If you are using SoapCalc.net, just add enough extra water to give you a 1:3 ratio.

That gives me the following recipe:

0% superfat (for a household/laundry soap)
CO 16 oz
KOH 4.57 oz
Water 13.61 oz
I don't disagree with your recommendation for what to try first. Here we have a recipe, extensive step by step instructions, and a predictable outcome. People will do what they want, but it's a good suggestion.

However, I disagree with the implication that we are doing something so modern and new, with Failor relegated to "her day." Failor was ahead of her time and we have barely caught up.

Her day is today. The glycerine method is actually just a small twist on facilitating saponification with solvents. Using glycerin is easy and convenient, but solvent methods for making soap are nothing new. Her books are all about it. She has one in both her Liquid and Transparent books, and she explains why it works. The exact same explanation applies to glycerin.

It's nice to have an easy and reliable cookbook method, but if you want to really learn about liquid soap she is still the place to go. She knows what she is talking about. There's lots of good information, along with principles and methods many people don't know. Lots of examples of that besides using sodium soap as an additive. Knowledge is power.

Lye calculators don't seem relevant to me. People didn't do the math any differently before we had them. Failor is using different SAP values than SoapCalc, but neither set is right or wrong. I have my own also. They are only a guesstimate, so we rely on the errors to even out or at least not to exceed our lye discount.

I bet you can tell she is my hero. ;)
 

Susie

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She was WAY ahead of her time. I found loads and loads of valuable information in her book. You will never hear me say that she does not have good solid information in there!

However, her "lye excess then neutralize/sequester/clarify" method with all it's many steps is confusing for newbies and simply unnecessary to achieve good soap. Truly. Again, we have good lye calculators now that allow us to set our superfat and get the correct amount of lye needed to saponify our oils. She is also fixated on absolutely clear soap. I really don't care if mine is clear, as long as there is no separation.

And the way the book is laid out is a complete nightmare to someone who is a linear thinker. My brain needs information presented to it in steps (First you do this, then you do that, then that, etc). Her steps are all in there, but not in any sort of order for someone like me.

Having said all of that, I will say that Catherine Failor developed methods that put liquid soapmaking into the hands of small soapers for the first time ever. AND she was kind enough to put the information in a book to share! She was truly revolutionary!

You will also notice that I said not to try it first. I did not say not to try it ever. I have used quite a few of her recipes, just ran them through a lye calculator so that I could skip all the neutralization/sequestration/clarification steps.
 

madison

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Lye calculators don't seem relevant to me. People didn't do the math any differently before we had them.)
Since I learned about soap calc I always felt that I love to learn how to do the math by hand, I know this sounds really crazy.
 

madison

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Please don't try a Failor recipe until you have tried the much easier methods on this forum! She was awesome in her time, but we have good lye calculators now. I would hate for you to get scared off of liquid soapmaking before you ever get started!

If you are using SoapCyou thinkc.net, just add enough extra water to give you a 1:3 ratio.

That gives me the following recipe:

0% superfat (for a household/laundry soap)
CO 16 oz
KOH 4.57 oz
Water 13.61 oz
Susie, I am not going to try the whole thing:(, it's very hard for me, I meant the little part of adding some grated soap to a simple one oil recipe. By the way thanks for the suggestion, do you think it's ok to add some grated soap since the CO comes to trace fast? Did you use sbm calc as you did in your CPLS thread? Do you think you would like to help me out about using it?
 

madison

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I am getting an error on the view recipe button in soapcalc page. Is this happening with someone else or only in my phone? My phone is windows and not compatible with a lot of things.
 

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