Help with LS recipe

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Obsidian

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I've made LS a few time but I have yet to find a recipe I am happy with. I want something gentle for my face but also bubbly enough that it will work for hands too.
Seems I either use too much or too little CO, what do you all suggest for a good %? What about the max amount of castor? I want this simple, the majority will be HO safflower with a bit of coconut to increase cleansing and some castor for bubbles.

I'm also wondering if I can add some extra water to the batter once it starts the Vaseline stage? I would like to store my paste and only dilute small amount at a time but I'd like what I'm storing to be soft enough I can just scoop it out of a jar.
I'm hoping that by adding water while its still cooking, that I won't need to add a preservative to what is stored since none of my preservatives are good for LS.
 

Obsidian

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One more thing, is there a lye calc that lets you put in the purity of your KoH? Mine is around 95%
 

doriettefarm

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How much CO have you used in the past? Just for comparison purposes, the liquid soap I included in the Winter Holiday swap used 25% CO and 10% castor. And just a couple of days ago I made a tallow based soap paste but this time dropped the CO to 20% and upped the castor to 15%. As for a lye calc, I've been using Soapee and pretty sure you can change the purity for KOH.
 

Obsidian

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I can't remember the coconut %, my LS notebook was ruined when I spilled on it. I want to say it was around 50%, ended up mixing some with my castile, it much nicer but since OO dries me out, it was still unusable.

Thanks for the % you use, I like you LS quite a lot.
 

doriettefarm

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Glad you liked the hazelnut liquid soap. This is the recipe in Soapee (http://soapee.com/recipes/178). It was a tad more cleansing that I wanted which is why I lowered the CO when I made the tallow version. I'll keep you posted on how the recipe tweak works out. I diluted about 5oz of the tallow soap paste with equal amount of distilled water yesterday so just have to pick a scent and test it.

Also wanted to ask if you're using 100% water with your KOH or if you use the split glycerin method. I've been doing the latter (dissolve KOH in equal amount of water then add glycerin at 2x water amount). I'm not patient enough to do the 100% water and cook for hours method. The split glycerin method is so much quicker and easier for me plus the diluted soap seems to have more body with the added glycerin. I think IrishLass originally posted about the method and I even linked it in my Soapee recipe . . . it's a good read.
 

IrishLass

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Am I imagining things, or do I remember DeeAnna once posting instructions on how to manually calculate purity of lye? I'll have to go search it out when I have more time today...unless she happens to see this and beats me to the punch, which would be most awesome.

I don't know if I will be of any help or not since I've never used my liquid soap on my face, but for what it's worth, I make 2 different liquid soap formulas that me and my family love for washing our hands at the sink, and that are non-drying (to us) and nicely bubbly.

The first one is 65% OO (which one could very easily sub with HO safflower), 25% coconut and 10% castor (made via the glycerin method) and superfatted @ 3% on Summerbee's advanced LS calculator.

And the other is 35% coconut, 30% castor, 20% cocoa butter, 10% olive, 5% shea butter (also made via the glycerin method). Believe it or not, this one happens to be especially more favored than the OO formula for it's increased non-drying feel, even though it has more coconut oil in it. I attribute this to its higher superfat %, which ends up being 7% all is said and done (3% up front, and the rest at dilution). The soap finishes out opaque with a beautiful pearlescent sheen to it (from the high stearic), and the lather is super bubbly, rich and creamy, and I never have to use lotion after washing my hands with it. I use PS 80 to keep everything nicely emulsified.


IrishLass :)
 

Obsidian

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I've use either glycerin or water, never the split method but I had planned on trying it this time. I didn't much care for using just glycerin, it turned a ugly yellow when I added the KoH.

IL, your first recipe is what I settled on trying but with saff instead of OO. Really hoping it will make a nice face soap. I'm planning on using a foaming bottle.

I'm sure there is some way to determine lye purity but I'm too lazy and I hate math. My LS figured with 100% purity has too much floating SF, changed the setting to 90% and the paste stayed zappy. After reworking the paste to get it zap free, my lye purity came out roughly to 95% so thats what I'll stick with.
 

doriettefarm

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IrishLass - your recipe #2 sounds really nice with all those butters! Would you mind sharing what % stearic acid you add at dilution to bring it up to 7%SF? I've never added stearic to my LS but would love to get the pearly look . . . that's actually what I was hoping for with the tallow based paste but after diluting it's crystal clear. Do you think the stearic would stay mixed without adding PS80? All I've got is ewax but not sure if that's an appropriate substitute.
 

DeeAnna

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Most of the calcs are set for 100% KOH purity, with three exceptions that I know of: SoapCalc (90% or 100%), Brambleberry (95%), and Summer Bee Meadow (94%). I have not used Soapee, so I don't know what you can or can't do with it.

If you don't want to use BB or SBM with your 95% KOH, then you can manually correct the KOH weight if you know the purity the calc is using AND the purity of your actual KOH --

KOH you need = (KOH based on calc's purity) X (Calc's KOH purity) / (Actual KOH purity)

Example: You use SBM calc which is set for 94% purity. Your actual KOH is 85%. The calc says you need 145 g of KOH at its 94% purity. The weight of KOH that you need at your actual purity of 85% is this:

KOH you need = (145 g) X 94 / 85 = 160 g

Or ... if you use Soapcalc, first calculate the KOH using the 100% setting. Next, calculate it a second time using the 90% setting. Find the average (halfway) between the two. That will work.
 
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kcbitsupply

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And the other is 35% coconut, 30% castor, 20% cocoa butter, 10% olive, 5% shea butter (also made via the glycerin method). Believe it or not, this one happens to be especially more favored than the OO formula for it's increased non-drying feel, even though it has more coconut oil in it. I attribute this to its higher superfat %, which ends up being 7% all is said and done (3% up front, and the rest at dilution). The soap finishes out opaque with a beautiful pearlescent sheen to it (from the high stearic), and the lather is super bubbly, rich and creamy, and I never have to use lotion after washing my hands with it. I use PS 80 to keep everything nicely emulsified.


IrishLass :)
Ok. This recipe looks yummy and I gotta try it. Like, right now! But, I have a couple questions:

1. Are you ADDING stearic acid to this recipe? Or are you referring to the stearic acid that's naturally found in the cocoa and shea butters?

2. I don't know how to superfat after/at dilution. I've never tried that. Do you just add extra oil? Or, is that what the polysorbate 80 is for? To emulsify the added oils with the soap?
 

DeeAnna

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IL is adding stearic acid after the soap is done. Stearic acid can be reacted with lye to make soap, but it can be used as itself as a thickener and pearlizer. IL is using it in her recipe as a thickener/pearlizer.
 

kumudini

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Does stearic acid have any effect on the lather?
 

IrishLass

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Hi all!

Ditto what DeeAnna said. :thumbup:

Just to summarize, I have a built-in 3% super-fat up front......

...then I add 3% stearic acid later on (post saponification) as per the weight of my finished paste when I'm diluting, which actually ends up calculating out to being a 2% s/f in my finished soap when I include the weight of all of my other dilution ingredients into the calculations........

Next, once all the above ^^^ is diluted and cooled off, I weigh it, then I stir in a 2% amount of meadowfoam seed oil as per the diluted soap's weight, along with enough PS80 to emulsify. I don't need to heat the soap at this point since the meadowfoam oil is a liquid and not a solid like the stearic. I just hand-stir the oil in along with the PS80, and it goes right in without a problem.

So, basically, my finished soap has a 7% s/f when all is said and done.

As an aside, I tried using cetyl alcohol in place of the stearic once, but it did not give my finished soap a nice opaque, pearly look. It just gave it an ugly, murky look.

To answer Kumudini's question- if you are asking if the stearic kills the lather, the answer is no. Actually, the stearic adds a really nice dimension to the lather. I've tried my formula without it, and it just does not feel as rich or luxuriant to me. There's a lot of coconut in there (35%), so the bubbles are able to hold their own just fine. The added stearic adds a really nice creaminess, thickness and pearliness to it. Of the 2 liquid soap formulas I make, this one comes in #1 with my family. They like the other one, too, but this one is the favorite hands down.



IrishLass :)
 

shunt2011

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Me too...not for a couple weeks though. Still getting ready for my last 3 shows. Soaps to wrap & label, scrubs and body butters to label.
 

kcbitsupply

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I don't have any meadowfoam seed oil or PS80. Will I notice a big difference if I leave that out?
 

IrishLass

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Dang, if I knew you guys were taking notes in order to try making this I would have mentioned that I also add PS80 along with the stearic acid at dilution to emulsify it into the diluting soap. I add it at a rate of .15% as per the weight of the paste. lol


kcbitsupply said:
I don't have any meadowfoam seed oil or PS80. Will I notice a big difference if I leave that out?

You might not notice a difference since you haven't made it yet and wouldn't have a batch with a meadowfoam S/F in it to compare it to, but speaking only for myself, I'd definitely notice a difference without the meadowfoam, for sure, but that's because I really love the feel of meadowfoam on my skin. You can certainly use another oil in place of the meadowfoam if you wish, though. :)

The PS80, on the other hand, is critical in this formula whether you use meadowfoam or just the extra stearic, because without the PS80, the extra superfatting from either the meadowfoam or the stearic will separate out of the mix and cause a fatty layer to float on top of the finished soap.

You can certainly try it, but I personally wouldn't recommend adding any kind of extra superfat without an emulsifier of some kind. I've done so before (in the 65% olive oil formula that I make), and the superfat precipitated out of the soap over the course of a month or so and formed a layer of fat on the top of the soap.


IrishLass :)
 

doriettefarm

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IL do you think regular ewax would work instead of PS80? And if so, would you use it at the same .15% rate? And yes, some of us are definitely taking notes! Even if you say you're not sure about the ewax vs PS80 I will probably try it next time I dilute some of my tallow soap paste. :)
 
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kcbitsupply

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IL do you think regular ewax would work instead of PS80? And if so, would you use it at the same .15% rate? And yes, some of us are definitely taking notes! Even if you say you're not sure about the ewax vs PS80 I will probably try it next time I dilute some of my tallow soap paste. :)
How on earth do you use ewax in liquid soap? Please let me know because I have some of that but no PS80.

I think I'll try substituting jojoba for the meadowfoam. I've seen meadowfoam listed as an ingredient in several recipes but I've already invested so much money in supplies that I hate to buy another specialty item. Can anybody here relate to that one? So, I've read that jojoba can substitute for the meadowfoam and I think I'll try that unless anybody has another suggestion.
 

DeeAnna

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I haven't tried e-wax in things like this, although I've used it in lotions. I don't know if this idea will work very well, but it certainly won't hurt anything to give it a try. I'd do just a small batch in case it doesn't work as planned, however!

Here are my thoughts about polysorbate vs. e-wax --

For one thing, the polysorbate isn't acting as an emulsifier in this liquid soap. An emulsion is mixture of small oil droplets dispersed within water-based liquid -- pretty much what you get when you violently shake a vinegar-oil vinaigrette. The oil is STILL not soluble or fully mixed into the water in an emulsion. It's just being forced to stay in small droplets, rather than separating as it would prefer to do.

That's not what the polysorbate is doing in this context. The PS is acting as a solubilizer -- it basically converts the oil into a water soluble ingredient. That way, individual oil molecules can mix with the soap and form a homogeneous mixture. This is a stable mixture -- the oil-water-soap-PS mixture will stay happily mixed. This is more like what you get when you mix glycerin with water, for example. It's also pretty much what happens when castor oil is sulfonated and converted into "turkey red" oil -- this is a water soluble oil.

For another, e-wax has to be heated up to melt and function as an emulsifier, and I can't quite reconcile the heating the emulsifier with the idea of adding it to a liquid soap. If you had a room temperature emulsifier, that might be more realistic.

If I didn't have PS80, I would keep the total superfat within the 3% magic limit that seems to work well for liquid soap and see how that works. It might be a really nice soap!
 
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