help me scientifically respond to the "soap is bad for skin pH" claim

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Hello again my fellow soapers and generally awesome people! I am going to put together a scientific-cite-filled knock-out write-up for all of us to have in our arsenals for any "just in case" situation. It may take me a little while, as life tends to be distracting, but when I finish it, I will post it here for us all to have. :D
 
Well bless her heart.


And thanks everyone for posting the papers ... I'd hate to be one of those *@4!'s who only have anecdotal evidence to support their "facts".

For those of you who are not fortunate enough to be Southern, let me translate, "Well bless her heart." It means, "She is so dumb/stupid/foolish/idiotic/hateful, that only divine intervention can help her."

I snorted coffee all over my laptop. Kudos!
 
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I wonder what SHE does for a living or hobby? I wonder how she would feel if somebody called her irresponsible for following her passion and making something wonderfully wholesome and luxurious? You can usually find a study to support both sides of an argument. I'm a nurse, and I know that 'anecdotal' evidence is the least credible but I completely believe there is something to be said for experience. There is wisdom in years of experience observing repeated outcomes and passing that information along. I've read studies discounting some of the techniques used by myself and other nurses I work with that I KNOW work! And I will continue to use them because I have enough experience and repeated good outcomes for my patients that I know they work, like I know the sky is blue! One cranky nurse even brought this study to me on my lunch and shoved it in my face! I told her that I don't care what that paper says, I will do what I feel is best for my patients and I know what works. And I have the track record to prove it!
Is handmade soap for everyone? I guess not. Is it good for many? Hell yes! I wash my hands (what feels like) a million times a day and until I started to make my own soap my hands were cracked and bleeding from the hospital grade syndets and alcohol based gel cleansers we use, as well as those I was using at home. I have a friend whose hands were so dry and cracked they looked like alligator skin! Her skin is now intact. She claims it's because she uses my soap. And when she runs out and uses syndets, boom, alligator skin! I have a family member who has a skin disorder that is characterized by extreme dryness and she will only use handmade soap because that's what works for her. Not scientifically proven, but good enough for me! Aaaaannndd....rant over!
ETA- also, I'm sure that you started making soap just so you could destroy the acid mantle of everyone you hand a bar to with your irresponsible use of oils and superfatting! What are people thinking?!

I second all of the above. I am a nurse, also, and cracked, bleeding, alligator skin is what I had for years and years. All of that stopped as soon as I started using true soap.
 
For those of you who are not fortunate enough to be Southern, let me translate, "Well bless her heart." It means, "She is so dumb/stupid/foolish/idiotic/hateful, that only divine intervention can help her."

I snorted coffee all over my laptop. Kudos!

I've always translated "Well, bless her heart" into two very simple words for northern folks. The second is "you."
 
I would have asked what she uses to clean herself. Was she a smelly hippy type? To be clean we need some type of soap. I have a parent of a disable fellow that spends 45 bucks on a foaming 4 oz bottle. Bit that person you are talking about wanted to get your goat. Maybe she was a plant for another vender that believes in that ph setup and was trying to get people in your booth. Or they Judy's might have been a jerk. Keep in mind you can't please everyone
 
The Update

Well, I feel really beat down by what I’ve found out in my research and in my internet searches this past week. It looks like people are convinced that soap is bad, it’s incredibly easy to back it up with the pH studies out there, and there’s no perfect science to back up our positive anecdotal experiences. Here’s what I’ve got…

The surface of healthy adult human skin across the body ranges from 4.0 pH to 5.9 pH (Source: Korting, H. and Braun-Falco, O. [1996], The Effect of Detergents on Skin pH and Its Consequences. Clinics in Dermatology, 14:23-27).

“The acidic pH inhibits some bacterial and fungal growth” (Draelos, Z. [1998], Cosmetics, Skin Care Products, and the Dermatologic Surgeon. Dermatologic Surgery, 24: 543-546).

“Many factors, such as age, ethnic differences, sebum, sweat, detergents, cosmetics, and irritation, affect the pH of the skin” (Takagi, Y., et. al. [2014], The Long-Term Use of Soap Does Not Affect the pH-Maintenance Mechanism of Human Skin. Skin Research and Technology, 0: 1).

Cleansing surfactants, such as soap (from 9.5 to 11 pH) and synthetic detergent bars (“syndets”) (from 3.6 to 7.5 pH), and even water alone (usually about 7 pH) also affect the pH of the skin and alkanize it (Sources: Takagi, Y., et. al. [2014], The Long-Term Use of Soap Does Not Affect the pH-Maintenance Mechanism of Human Skin. Skin Research and Technology, 0: 1; and Abbas, S., Goldberg, J.W. and Massaro, M. [2004], Personal Cleanser Technology and Clinical Performance. Dermatologic Therapy, 17: 36-38; and Draelos, Z. [1998], Cosmetics, Skin Care Products, and the Dermatologic Surgeon. Dermatologic Surgery, 24: 543).

Specifically, “skin pH rises 1.1 points following washing with water alone, 1.2 points after washing with alkaline soap, and 0.9 points after washing with a synthetic detergent beauty bar” (Draelos, Z. [1998], Cosmetics, Skin Care Products, and the Dermatologic Surgeon. Dermatologic Surgery, 24: 543; see also Takagi, Y., et. al. [2014], The Long-Term Use of Soap Does Not Affect the pH-Maintenance Mechanism of Human Skin. Skin Research and Technology, 0: 1).

The pH of the skin, however, is maintained by the “acid mantle,” and due to the mechanisms of the acid mantle, “the pH of the skin normally returns to an acidic pH even when changed by [outside] factors” (Takagi, Y., et. al. [2014], The Long-Term Use of Soap Does Not Affect the pH-Maintenance Mechanism of Human Skin. Skin Research and Technology, 0: 1).

Indeed, the pH of healthy skin returns to normal “within 30 minutes after washing” (Draelos, Z. [1998], Cosmetics, Skin Care Products, and the Dermatologic Surgeon. Dermatologic Surgery, 24: 543-546).

Alkalinity only becomes a problem if the skin pH remains elevated for more than 4 hours because of insufficient rinsing and/or too frequent product use (Source: Abbas, S., Goldberg, J.W. and Massaro, M. [2004], Personal Cleanser Technology and Clinical Performance. Dermatologic Therapy, 17: 36).

On April 1, 2011, Dr. Zoe Diana Draelos, a consulting professor of dermatology at Duke University School of Medicine, wrote an article for the Dermatology Times. In the article, available at (http://dermatologytimes.modernmedic...ow/do-ph-balanced-vitamin-d-products-really-i), she answered the question, “Are pH-balanced skincare products better?” Dr. Draelos wrote that “[t]he concept of pH-balanced products was introduced many years ago as an effective marketing strategy for soaps and moisturizers” and noted that there was “some merit” to the concept that products formulated around a pH of 5 to 5.5 may not cause stinging or burning when applied to sensitive, diseased or injured skin.” An even newer concept in US skincare is that slightly acidic products, formulated at a pH of 4, are even better in maintaining the acid mantle of the skin, in that keeping the skin at a slightly acidic pH can minimize bacterial colonization of the skin by normal organisms and pathogenic organisms. Dr. Draelos concluded, “It is important to remember that healthy skin will regain its acid mantle within 15 to 30 minutes after application of a skincare product, depending on pH. Retaining the acid mantel is only problematic in compromised barrier conditions.”

Citing Dr. Draelos, Randy Schueller and Perry Romanowski, cosmetic chemists at TheBeautyBrains.com, wrote in their 2013 book, It’s Okay to Have Lead in Your Lipstick: “We’ve always maintained that pH balanced skin care products are just marketing hype, because the skin’s natural pH resets itself within as little as 15 minutes after applying lotion…. So while we’re in full agreement with the expert assessment that in some special circumstances the pH of the product can make a difference, we maintain our stance that in the general case, pH balance is more hyperbole than healthy. The Bottom Line: Unless you have a skin disease, you don’t need to waste your money on products that expect you to pay more just because of their pH.”

Further, in discussing facial cleansers versus “true” soaps on the face, Cindy Jones, Ph.D. a cosmetic formulator and microbiologist, wrote on the website PersonalCareTruth.com (http://personalcaretruth.com/2010/06/ask-the-experts-5/) that while washing with true soap will “somewhat” disrupt the normal pH of the skin, as compared to washing with a syndet, healthy skin will return to normal and that the return can be “hastened” by following washing with a slightly acidic toner or applying a lotion or cream, which are in the range of 3 to 6 pH, matching the pH of the skin.

A study published in 2014 (Takagi, Y., et. al. [2014], The Long-Term Use of Soap Does Not Affect the pH-Maintenance Mechanism of Human Skin. Skin Research and Technology, 0: 1-5) addressed the allegation that the continuous usage of a soap or an alkaline skin cleanser might increase the pH of the skin by affecting the system that maintains its pH. To clarify the effects of continuously-used cleansers on the pH of the skin, the study compared skin surface pH prior to and following washing with a soap bar between 5-year-long users of a soap-based cleanser and of a mild-acidic cleanser. The study concluded that long-term continuous use of an alkaline soap-based cleanser does not affect the mechanisms of the acid mantle in maintaining a mildly acidic pH of the skin. Furthermore, the paper noted that “[d]uring regular use of soap, the contact time of the surfactant to the skin is very short and is followed by rinsing with water. [The data] may suggest that the penetration of soap during regular use has less effect and the buffer capacity of the stratum corneum [i.e., the outermost layer of the epidermis] far exceeds the amount of acid necessary to transform residues of the surfactant” on the skin (Takagi, Y., et. al. [2014], The Long-Term Use of Soap Does Not Affect the pH-Maintenance Mechanism of Human Skin. Skin Research and Technology, 0: 4).

Studies acknowledge that “uperfatting [true soap] improves the moisturization and mildness of the product, as well as the lather, mush, and wear properties” (Abbas, S., Goldberg, J.W. and Massaro, M. [2004], Personal Cleanser Technology and Clinical Performance. Dermatologic Therapy, 17: 36).

Indeed, “modern cleansing bars, even soap bars, are nowadays very complex mixtures that are generally very mild on the skin. The potential irritancy of the alkaline surfactants present in the soap cleansing bar are neutralized by the addition of humectants, filmogen, and emollient ingredients” (Barel, A.O., et. al. [2001], A Comparative Study of the Effects on the Skin of classical Bar Soap and a Syndet Cleansing Bar in Normal Use Conditions and in the Soap Chamber Test. Skin Research and Technology, 7: 98-104).

As for syndets, they “vary widely in terms of their chemical structure, physiochemical properties, and performance characteristics, including skin compatibility. Syndets are not necessarily less irritating than soaps” (Cosmetic Dermatology: Products and Procedures, edited by Draelos, Z. [2010]).

Interestingly, while one study comparing the pH of products to their “irritation potential” confirmed that sydents are generally “milder” than “common soaps,” it also illustrated the difficulty in taking a rigid approach to pH. The data revealed that the least irritating sydent (0.200) was Dove White, with a pH of 7.53, whereas the most irritating syndet (3.333) was Avecycle, with a pH of 3.61. Meanwhile, the least irritating soap (2.779) was Johnson’s Baby Oat, which had a pH of 12.35, whereas the most irritating soap (5.284) was Camay Gala, with a pH of 10.36. (Source: Abbas, S., Goldberg, J.W. and Massaro, M. [2004], Personal Cleanser Technology and Clinical Performance. Dermatologic Therapy, 17: 36-38 ).

In sum, for those with healthy skin, data points to “true” soap not being "inherently bad." The choice of what to use as a cleanser may be left to personal preference. Even Randy Schueller, cosmetic chemist at TheBeautyBrains.com (who, from all evidence, seems to loooooooove syndets), appears to agree that “everyone’s skin and preferences are different. Personal experimentation is your best option” (http://thebeautybrains.com/2008/11/17/what-is-the-difference-between-soap-surfactants/).

WHEW! Many thanks to all of you, who pointed me in some wonderful directions for this research! :cool:
 
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Now just one more step. Use Avery or another online editor and produce a simple brochure or card to have on hand if anyone ever tries that again! Simply say, " I'm sorry but I and most experts disagree with you" while smiling and hand them the brochure. It will be easier than trying to remember everything you found through your research.

( I will be borrowing your research to do the exact same thing). Thank you for the time you put into this.
 
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Thank you so much for all this work! I think it would be a great idea to make this up into a brochure. I know IF I ever decide I want to sell, I would love to have this as a poster for my table at farmer's markets and conventions. :D
 
autumngirl, in the first paragraph you wrote that you feel "beat down", and I took that to mean that the data you found was discouraging. Did I understand you correctly?
 
autumngirl, in the first paragraph you wrote that you feel "beat down", and I took that to mean that the data you found was discouraging. Did I understand you correctly?

Yes, unfortunately, I do feel discouraged and glass-half-empty about this. :cry: Truly, there were SO MANY studies out there about how soap is "irritating" and "harsh" and "drying" compared to syndets; it felt like being the last person standing in a dodge ball game against a full team. There was nothing to back up any of our personal non-irritating, non-harsh, non-drying experiences with soap. All I really found was that perhaps, maybe, soap "might not" be "bad." I was hoping to find something that said, "some people don't feel irritated by soap, and that's cool! If soap's your jam, stick with it!" I'd really love for a study to analyze handcrafted, superfatted soap for this reason, but I guess until we're all big corporation with big money, we won't be able to fund such research.
 
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Yes, unfortunately, I do feel discouraged and glass-half-empty about this. :cry: Truly, there were SO MANY studies out there about how soap is "irritating" and "harsh" and "drying" compared to syndets; it felt like being the last person standing in a dodge ball game against a full team. There was nothing to back up any of our personal non-irritating, non-harsh, non-drying experiences with soap. All I really found was that perhaps, maybe, soap "might not" be "bad." I was hoping to find something that said, "some people don't feel irritated by soap, and that's cool! If soap's your jam, stick with it!" I'd really love for a study to analyze handcrafted, superfatted soap for this reason, but I guess until we're all big corporation with big money, we won't be able to fund such research.

Actually, as an armchair science sort, I was reading most of your studies as saying precisely that--if soap's your jam, stick to it.

About the worst they could say was that your pH returns to normal in thirty minutes or so. Identical with water or a syndet, and the syndets threw your pH off almost as far (which wasn't that far at all).

Mind you, I'm sure some of those studies have an agenda to show that the syndets are as good as or better than actual soap and were funded by companies that make syndet bars. Just because It's A Study doesn't make it Good Science.
 
Mind you, I'm sure some of those studies have an agenda to show that the syndets are as good as or better than actual soap and were funded by companies that make syndet bars. Just because It's A Study doesn't make it Good Science.


Good point! Yes, these studies were all funded by (and mostly in-house at) Glaxo Smith Klien and Colgate and Biore and Johnson & Johnson, etc.!
 
Good point! Yes, these studies were all funded by (and mostly in-house at) Glaxo Smith Klien and Colgate and Biore and Johnson & Johnson, etc.!

Bingo. None of the above have any market share--nor desire--to produce a high quality soap.

That doesn't necessarily make the study bad in and of itself, but it does mean that you should inspect the methodology of it very, very carefully and probe the background, education, and other writings of the researchers involved.

In one particularly egregious case, an electronic cigarette study claimed to find formaldehyde in the exhale. They "neglected" to account for the fact that humans produce formaldehyde naturally and that exhaled levels were within the normal range. There was no control.

These kinds of things have taught me to Follow The Money and always, always check the methodology section for serious and obvious "errors."
 
I found nothing negative in the information you posted autumngirl. After all...even plain water affects skin in a comparable manner as soap.

And....keep in mind the syndets often contain sodium laurel sulfates and other such things that people are saying we need to keep away from! I think you forgot that.

And...the killer point for me is that the syndets have ADDED ingredients to combat the affects of dryness, skin tightness, etc caused by the syndet bar in the first place.

Did you know that there's a small camp of people who are investigating
applying a bacterial solution to their skin in lieu of showering or bathing? I head one man's account of his experience - wish I could remember the source. But after his experiment ended....he went back to showering due to the slight but constant odor many people could detect.

So until people decide en masse to live by the most natural method of skin care (feeding bacteria to your skin), the western world is going to stick to soap and water because we're used to having unscented people.

It's up to each individual to decide whether their skin needs a syndet or homemade bar of soap.

To avoid the maniac that challenged you; perhaps we need to add an Amendment to the Constitution!

Thank you for all of your hard work; and again....I found only encouraging words in there!
 
Bingo. None of the above have any market share--nor desire--to produce a high quality soap.

That doesn't necessarily make the study bad in and of itself, but it does mean that you should inspect the methodology of it very, very carefully and probe the background, education, and other writings of the researchers involved.

In one particularly egregious case, an electronic cigarette study claimed to find formaldehyde in the exhale. They "neglected" to account for the fact that humans produce formaldehyde naturally and that exhaled levels were within the normal range. There was no control.

These kinds of things have taught me to Follow The Money and always, always check the methodology section for serious and obvious "errors."

^This! Many times over, exactly this! Studies are funded with $$. Find out who paid for it, then look at the results. Read it with a huge grain of salt.

I don't think anyone really knows who said this first, but it was not me. "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
 
^This! Many times over, exactly this! Studies are funded with $$. Find out who paid for it, then look at the results. Read it with a huge grain of salt.

I don't think anyone really knows who said this first, but it was not me. "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

That's one of my favorite quotes! It was popularized by Twain. The original attribution was to Benjamin Disraeli, but there's a lot of controversy about that.
 
There is another more basic ( ha funny joke) reason soap does better than the syndets sometimes for acne. P. Acnes is the bacteria that tends to cause breakouts and some of us have it & some don't. It is not going to live in a pH >7.5. Before all the cute creams & antibiotics dermatologists were huge fans of glycerin soaps & benzoyl peroxide. Bp can kill the bacteria also I believe but it also unclogs the pores. Syndets make a happy environment for the bacteria. But hey, I'm just a doc that like the old fashioned stuff that actually works.
 
Did you know that there's a small camp of people who are investigating applying a bacterial solution to their skin in lieu of showering or bathing? I head one man's account of his experience - wish I could remember the source. But after his experiment ended....he went back to showering due to the slight but constant odor many people could detect.

Wow, yes!! I read something about that!

For anyone who is curious, you can find some info here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/25/m...oo-bacteria-rich-hygiene-experiment.html?_r=0
and
http://6thfloor.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/05/22/julia-scott-on-going-suds-free-for-28-days/
 

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