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troyrim01

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Liquid soap dilution ...please help

Hey guys! :)

I attempted my first liquid soap today and after plenty of research prior to giving it a go, I'm still unsure if what I've done is right :-? If anyone can give me any help, I'd greatly greatly appreciate it :mrgreen:

recipe:
18oz. Coconut Oil
4oz. Palm Oil
10oz. Olive Oil
10oz. Canola (Rapeseed) Oil
8oz. Sweet Almond Oil
12oz. Potassium Hydroxide
36oz. Distilled Water

I tested for clarity which I THINK was pretty clear (it wasn't milky or heavily cloudy, but only a light touch of cloudiness)

I divided my soap paste into 4 (and wrapped and stored my remaining 3 in the fridge)

I brought 33oz of water (with 10ml of liquid silk) to about 130ºF and added 5 tablespoons of sulfonated castor oil (I was supposed to use teaspoons :oops: ), mixed well, and then placed chunks of my soap paste into the water (1.6lbs of soap paste)

[am I right in thinking that 33oz water with 1.6lbs soap paste is 25% actual soap??]

The dilution did heat up to as much as 170º at one point, but I kept turning the heat down (also unsure if the evaporation has effected it. I did have the crockpot lid on though??)

After around 4 hours, the soap was very clear and diluted. A skin kept forming on the top though (is this normal and what should I do with it?). I then mixed 1oz citric acid with 4oz boiling distilled water, but as soon as the first drops of the neutraliser went into my soap, it instantly clouded. The clouds eventually broke down but I continued to add the neutraliser which turned my whole soap cloudy.

I mixed it well, added 3oz of fragrance which thickened my soap, then added colour, mixed it, and spooned my liquid soap into a jar. It was still very warm when I spooned into the jar (should I have allowed it to cool down in the crockpot first??)

Final questions:
Does my soap gain clarity after a week or 2 weeks of sequestering?
Is it normal to have loads of tiny bubbles in my soap?
Or is what I've done right?

image1.jpg
 
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DeeAnna

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You were probably fine until you decided the soap needed to be neutralized with a whopping dose of citric acid.

This thread and your later thread -- http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=61177 -- are about the same issue and should be combined into one. Multiple threads are going to really confuse people. Please see my answer in your other thread.
 
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DeeAnna

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You continued the discussion in your other thread, so let's get the conversation redirected here...

You wrote in http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=61177:
"...Thanks DeeAnna. I'm unsure on why I didn't need to neutralise, I was following everything that I had read. Also, my mistake lol, I thought the whole neutralising solution had to be added – how much was supposed to be added? ....I think I won't add it next time though....I just hope it's safe to use if neutraliser is not added (although I superfat with the sulfonated castor oil). I won't try to fix it with KOH, I'll just attempt it again with my remaining soap pastes. Is my only problem an aesthetic issue? ...the soap I have made will still be okay to use, right? ..."

Okay, let's look at the recipe.

First off -- did you personally run this recipe through a soap recipe calculator? If not, then your first mistake was trusting someone else's numbers. Never, never use someone else's recipe without you first double checking the numbers. Never blindly use any recipe from someone else -- not mine, nor Catherine Failor's (it looks like a recipe from her book), nor anyone else's.

When checking someone's recipe, it's also good to think about what the numbers are telling you. For example, if the superfat built into someone's recipe is around zero to a positive number, this fact is telling you that neutralization is not needed -- there is no excess lye to get rid of.

As best I can estimate using my personal soap recipe calc -- The base recipe is set for a zero to -1% superfat assuming you are using KOH at 90% purity. From what I can tell, you didn't need to add any citric acid at all -- the soap did not need neutralization -- especially since you also then added a superfat. The superfat alone would fix any excess KOH by saponifying with any excess lye.

If I'm following your method correctly, you added 1 ounce of citric acid to 1/4th of the soap paste you made. This effectively neutralized about .9 ounces of the KOH (on a 100% KOH basis) in this portion of the soap -- in other words, the acid consumed about 1/3 of the KOH. Small wonder the soap "broke" into fatty acids.

I personally would not use soap with this much fatty acid and superfat. The problem is relatively easy to fix.

To fix this diluted soap, I estimate you would need to add about 0.9 to 1 ounces of actual 90% KOH back into this portion to saponify the fatty acids (the snow). But if you do this, add the KOH in small parts, not all at once. Wait a day or so between each addition. When the soap clears, it's done, regardless of whether you've added all the KOH or not.

If for some reason you need to use citric acid to neutralize in the future, take the same tack -- add it in small portions, not all at once, and take your time. Every batch of soap is different and chemistry takes time, so it's important to allow for that.

I would not add any citric acid to the remaining soap paste. I really do not think it is needed.
 
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Susie

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I am answering here rather than the other thread.

You did not need to add that much citric acid. You only have -0.5% superfat.

Cloudy Recipe
Recipe Oils

Oil % Ounces Grams
Almond Oil, sweet 16 8 226.8
Canola Oil 20 10 283.5
Coconut Oil, 76 deg 36 18 510.3
Olive Oil 20 10 283.5
Palm Oil 8 4 113.4
100 50 1,417.5
Recipe Totals

Total Water Weight 35.99 ounces 1,020.2 g
Total KOH Weight 12 ounces at 90% purity 340.1 g
Total Oil Weight 50 ounces 1,417.5 g
Fragrance Oil Weight 1.5 ounces 42.5 g
Total Batch Weight 99.48 ounces 2,820.2 g
Superfat -.5%
Lye Concentration 25%
Water : Lye Ratio 3 : 1
Saturated : Unsaturated 38 : 62

You need to not use any recipe that you, personally, have not run through a lye calculator for yourself. Typos happen.

Your white "snow flurries" were caused by your palm oil. Palm, tallow, and lard will do that. Jojoba will give your cloudy soap that separates.

You also need to try making a recipe that has a positive superfat and skip the whole neutralization step. But this is DeeAnna's neutralization ratios so we can try to fix this one:

10 g citric acid neutralizes 8.42 g KOH.

OK, with that being said, you needed 12 g CA to neutralize that to 3% superfat. You added 112. So, if my math is correct, you need to add 842 grams KOH back to the whole amount. I would mix that with an equal amount of water if you have already diluted the whole thing. You need to adjust that depending on how much you have diluted already. I would add that KOH/water to soap in a crock pot on warm, or a stainless steel pot on low on the stove.

You also need to consider not making such large recipes until you have a recipe you LOVE. I work with 32 oz/1 L of oil batches.
 

troyrim01

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Thank you so much, DeeAnna. I really appreciate the time you've put into helping me out. I'll definitely take your advice on board :grin:
 

troyrim01

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Thank you, Suzie. I really appreciate your help.

I'm deciding to leave that soap how it is. I'm going to run my recipe through a calculator and have another attempt.
 

Susie

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I understand the desire to leave it as it is, however, I have learned more from fixing my mistakes than I learned from making a new batch.

Please learn to use a lye calculator. My favorite is Soapee.com, you can set your KOH purity, set your water:KOH ratio, and save your recipes.
 

troyrim01

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Hmm ...maybe I'll give it a shot then. I'll look at your suggested amounts and run them through a calculator beforehand :thumbup:

I'm currently using Brambleberry, but I'll take a look at Soapee :)
 

Susie

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Soapee.com is very user friendly to me. Set the type of soap, set the type of lye, set the amount of superfat, click the oils, type in the amounts, and you have the KOH and water as well as the batch size right on the same page, no going to another window.

For liquid soap, you want 0-3% superfat. 0% for laundry and dish soap, 3% for hand soap.

You need to know your KOH purity, I use Essential Depot, which is close enough to 90% for me to use that.

Also, as I said before, with the palm oil in there, you are going to have the white particles until they settle to the bottom. But, as DeeAnna said, when your soap clears, stop adding KOH.
 
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