Hard Vegan Bar Crumbled ! help

[Violetta]

Hi All
Happy New Year, I've been testing a new recipe for my chamomile soap bar with high lye concentration OF 37% superfast 5% so I took it out after 10h and it crumbled my hearth went boooo.

I've added 60g of Kaolin Clay it traced really nicely looked very promising. I wanted to make a really hard vegan bar ( is very hard ) but I think I pushed it to far. I don't use Palm oil

I'm thinking of reducing lye to 30% and leaving it as it's? but not sure, or maybe reduce hard oils?

Any thoughts? What can I turn my soap into, was thinking laundry soap?
Recipe attached. THANK YOU XXX

 

[Obsidian]

I assume it crumbled when you cut it? Next time, just cut sooner before it get too hard. I would.really suggest you lower the coconut to 20%, 30 is likely to be harsh.

Due to the butters in this, I wouldn't use it for laundry. Its liable to leave a fair amount of residue.

I'd chop it or grate it up and use it for confetti

 

[lsg]

You are using 55% hard fats, you might try using more liquid oils and increasing the liquid a little bit. As was previously stated, if it crumbles when cut, you could cut it before it gets that hard.

 

[Violetta]

It crumbled only at the edges while I was cutting, and I had a few cracks on the top but not that many. It's a hard bar

55% is not that harsh for me personally I always use high coconut as it a Vegan bar also I use 60/40 rule.
But it's a first time with 37% Lye concentration, really would like to know if lowering lye con. will help?

 

[Saranac]

Could it be the clay? 60 grams seems like a lot for 800 grams.

I ask because while I've ever used kaolin in soap, I make a vegan bar with 85% hard fats (coconut and refined shea) and a 40% NaOH concentration, and it has never crumbled when cut about 10-12 hours after pouring. Have you tried making a batch without the clay--just to see what it's like?

 

[Dawni]

I've only used that lye concentration with Castile. In my head, if I have more "hard" fats I need slightly more water.

Then you also have 60g of kaolin clay, and while it doesn't absorb too much water like bentonite, I'd have used a bit more water or a little less kaolin.

But I have no idea if these both contributed to the crumbling any more than just cutting too late lol.

What cutter do you use, by the way?

Good if 30% coconut works for you - I use less than 20 mostly, coz more than that dries my skin. Also, coconut makes a hard but very soluble bar, it's the butters that will make it long lasting.

If you're open to suggestions I'd take some out from either the coconut or the olive (or both) and add to the butters. In my vegan bars I use 30-45% combined butters, but I do cure these longer than usual. I also don't use palm.

 

[cmzaha]

I am really guessing it is the amount of clay you used helped contribute to the crumbling along with waiting too long to cut. Soap can crumble around the edges if cut too late or too soon. Lye concentration is not going to determine the hardness of your soap it is only cutting down the amount of liquid in your soap, the lye requirement remains the same. If you want a large amount of clay I would cut out the cocoa butter or at least cut it to 5% since cocoa butter can cause brittleness.

Cocoa butter will help with longevity that the coconut oil will not help with. High CO soaps, along with being high cleansing, are very soluble and do not last long. Hard soap does not equal long-lasting soap.

 

[Dawni]

I am really guessing it is the amount of clay you used helped contribute to the crumbling along with waiting too long to cut.

I took a guess at that myself. Glad to know I did not add anything that's incorrect.

 

[Violetta]

Could it be the clay? 60 grams seems like a lot for 800 grams.

I ask because while I've ever used kaolin in soap, I make a vegan bar with 85% hard fats (coconut and refined shea) and a 40% NaOH concentration, and it has never crumbled when cut about 10-12 hours after pouring. Have you tried making a batch without the clay--just to see what it's like?

Thank you for that. That is very good to know. I don't work that much with Kaolin clay myself but I do put a lot of french clay to my other recipe and normally works fine. Also I'm quite new to Lye concentration

I am really guessing it is the amount of clay you used helped contribute to the crumbling along with waiting too long to cut. Soap can crumble around the edges if cut too late or too soon. Lye concentration is not going to determine the hardness of your soap it is only cutting down the amount of liquid in your soap, the lye requirement remains the same. If you want a large amount of clay I would cut out the cocoa butter or at least cut it to 5% since cocoa butter can cause brittleness.

Cocoa butter will help with longevity that the coconut oil will not help with. High CO soaps, along with being high cleansing, are very soluble and do not last long. Hard soap does not equal long-lasting soap.

I think I need to half the clay and reduce cocoa butter but also I cut it 10h after do is that too late? for 37%
I never cut soap until 24h but I used 25% of lye con. What would be a good time in your opinion ?

I've only used that lye concentration with Castile. In my head, if I have more "hard" fats I need slightly more water.

Then you also have 60g of kaolin clay, and while it doesn't absorb too much water like bentonite, I'd have used a bit more water or a little less kaolin.

But I have no idea if these both contributed to the crumbling any more than just cutting too late lol.

What cutter do you use, by the way?

Good if 30% coconut works for you - I use less than 20 mostly, coz more than that dries my skin. Also, coconut makes a hard but very soluble bar, it's the butters that will make it long lasting.

If you're open to suggestions I'd take some out from either the coconut or the olive (or both) and add to the butters. In my vegan bars I use 30-45% combined butters, but I do cure these longer than usual. I also don't use palm.

Thank you YES, I would love to try that How much cocoa butter you use? Also, what is your lye concentration and superfast? If you don't mind sharing, I normally use the standard 5%.

How about that? With 35% lye co. & 5 superfat

Coconut Oil 20%
Cocoa butter 10%
Shea butter 25%
Olive Oil 30%
Sunflower 10%
Castor 5%


Thank you so much!

 

[Dawni]

Read through this and this to understand water in soap more.

I think that's better than the original. If you like the numbers then I say go for it. Only you can say if it's a good soap for you after you've made a small batch for testing

I personally like my longevity a bit higher so maybe I'll do 15-20% cocoa with 15-20% shea. Don't soap too cool to avoid stearic spots if you don't want em. Reduce your kaolin especially if you're not using more water, but based on the above links I think you should stick with the usual (for most) 33% lye concentration for now. Keep checking on it - should be just firm enough like a block of cheese when you cut.

I cure my other soaps minimum 2 months and the vegan ones 3-4 minimum. You'll find that the lather gets better even with high amounts of butters. I'd take cmzaha's advice regarding the kaolin though meaning you'll have to find a balance between cocoa and the clay.

 

[KiwiMoose]

I had a couple of bars that were crumbly - both were not gelled. I find a non-gelled soap tends to be more crumbly. However, I always use between 28 - 33% lye concentration so it seems i generally use more water than you. So I think more water might be a good idea - especially with the clay soaking some of it up.
I am also palm-free and I use soy wax at 20% which adds hardness and longevity. Before using soy wax I used cocoa butter but found it was too expensive at the ratios I wanted to use it.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I make soap a with 36% stearic and palmitic at 35% lye concentration that I can cut in about 8 hours. It does not have clay as an additive. In your recipe the clay measurement is 60 ml. That may not equate to 60 grams of clay. Solid/packed clay has a higher density than water. If the clay was not very loose in the spoon you very likely had more than 60 grams.

 

[Arimara]

For the record, it's a bad idea to use a sosp with a superfat for laundry, let alone this recipe. Lard or coconut oil are better candidates for that type of soap.

 

[Violetta]

I had a couple of bars that were crumbly - both were not gelled. I find a non-gelled soap tends to be more crumbly. However, I always use between 28 - 33% lye concentration so it seems i generally use more water than you. So I think more water might be a good idea - especially with the clay soaking some of it up.
I am also palm-free and I use soy wax at 20% which adds hardness and longevity. Before using soy wax I used cocoa butter but found it was too expensive at the ratios I wanted to use it.

Thank so much for that, I used Beewax but that was before I went Vegan. I agree about the cocoa butter, I have a lot of coconut wax so maybe adding 10% would work? and also Sodium Lactate.

I've always had a bit off a problem with hardness most my recipes are between 39 to 41 hard but I really want a very hard bar this time

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I’m not familiar with coconut wax and don’t see it in the two soap calculators I use. Where do you get it? If it’s actually a wax, it might be tricky to use due to acceleration issues.

I agree with what was mentioned above about making sure there’s enough water to hydrate the clay. I sometimes hydrate my clay with a little distilled water before I add it to the batter. You only need enough water to make a thick slurry, but it’s helpful to add the water about 30 min. In advance so you know it has had a chance to absorb the water.

You can also harden soap by adding a bit of salt to the recipe. This link is for a relatively recent discussion:
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/salt-and-hardness.74370/

If you’re interested in both hardness and longevity of the bar, consider ways to increase the palmitic & stearic fatty acids. Coconut oil increases hardness, but it does not help with longevity because it makes soap that dissolves easily. There’s a very helpful explanation of hardness, longevity and other bar qualities, here: https://classicbells.com/soap/soapCalcNumbers.asp

 

[Violetta]

I had a couple of bars that were crumbly - both were not gelled. I find a non-gelled soap tends to be more crumbly. However, I always use between 28 - 33% lye concentration so it seems i generally use more water than you. So I think more water might be a good idea - especially with the clay soaking some of it up.
I am also palm-free and I use soy wax at 20% which adds hardness and longevity. Before using soy wax I used cocoa butter but found it was too expensive at the ratios I wanted to use it.

Thank you for that. The final question I use SL so can I use both? You are so right CB is so expensive but I do love the creaminess of it so might just use max 5% - 8%. ( or will that be too small to add anything into a soap ?)

Also which wax do you recommend? I'm looking into an ECO wax?

I 've attached a recipe below THANK YOU SO MUCH X0X

 

[KiwiMoose]

I'd use 20% soy wax to try it - take it off your beeswax and either olive or sunflower in that recipe you have there.
I use Golden Wax: GW415 - it has no additives. Are you in the USA? It's readily available there.

 

[Violetta]

I'd use 20% soy wax to try it - take it off your beeswax and either olive or sunflower in that recipe you have there.
I use Golden Wax: GW415 - it has no additives. Are you in the USA? It's readily available there.

Ok, thank you. Yes beeswax was just as a placement as there is no Soy wax in the Calculator. I'm UK based
will have a look for golden wax. Thank you will share the results with you all soon.

 

[KiwiMoose]

There is one that one of our U.K. soapers uses, I think it is called Eco Soy or similar. From Europe. Soy wax is in the calculator under Soybean Oil 100% Hydrogenated.

Check with @SeaSuds - it’s called EuroSoy 800

 

[Violetta]

Just wanted to share my soap with you guys would not be able to do it all without your help. Used Eco Soy Wax and it has solved my hardening problem THANK YOU