Gw 464

Discussion in 'Candle Making Forum' started by dudeitsashley, Sep 3, 2016.

  1. Sep 3, 2016 #1

    dudeitsashley

    dudeitsashley

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    I am new to making soy wax candles and I love the outcome! They are creamy and have great hot and cold throw but, I am experiencing some frosting. What causes the frosting and is it something that I can avoid? I do add in vybar and universal additive to my wax. Any input will be great.
     
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  2. Sep 3, 2016 #2

    KristaY

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    I'm so glad you posted this! I'm having a terrible time with frosting too so was just sitting down to start researching what my problem might be. I'm using EcoSoya CB & PB, 50% each, scented at 10-12%, poured into clamshells for wax tarts. I heat to about 160F, pour at 140F.

    I hope someone comes along with advice, but until then I'm back to google....
     
  3. Sep 3, 2016 #3

    HappyGoNaturally

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    The frosting has to do with the temperature of the wax -- what it's heated to, and at what temp. it's poured. All of the waxes seem to have varying temps. at which to do this. For the EcoSoya, I think the temp. needs to be raised on the heating, and lowered on the cooling. For specifics, I'll have to come back later! :)
     
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  4. Sep 4, 2016 #4

    dudeitsashley

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    Hmm sounds like I might be pouring too hot. I am used to using paraffin wax and have to pour around 165-170 degrees fahrenheit. Thank you for the info HappyGoNaturally!
     
  5. Sep 4, 2016 #5

    KristaY

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    So far I've read that most people get frosting with the type of wax I'm using. I'm melting and pouring at the recommened temps so I think I'll give another brand a shot. Hopefully you work your frosting issues out too dudeitsashley!
     
  6. Sep 4, 2016 #6

    HappyGoNaturally

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    I'm using GW444 ... it is heated to 185df and cooled to about 135df -- I haven't had any frosting issues, just a little adhesion problems here and there on larger sized glassware. I believe the GW464 is supposed to be better with glass adhesion, but the scent load is a little less than the GW444 ... both of these waxes are blended with soy additives, so I have not been adding any vybar, etc. (I recently switched from GW415 in which I did use additives, I didn't have any frosting issues, but the tops of my candles were not quite as smooth ... lower fragrance load too.)

    The waiting for the cool down takes a little getting used to, esp. compared to paraffin, but I seem to be getting the hang of it -- it just feels kind of odd at first, leaving the wax you've melted to do other things and then coming back to stir again and pour the candle. I keep seeing different opinions on the cure time, but I think overall, at least two days seems to be acceptable. You might need to use a heat gun now and then on the tops, or you might need to top up after it's cooled -- for that, I just melt the little extra I saved and cool it only slightly -- it hasn't frosted on me doing it that way (!), so I guess that's okay to do!
     
  7. Sep 4, 2016 #7

    HappyGoNaturally

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    I read that it may help reduce frosting on the CB135 to pour at a lower temp (100df), but it said to do that if you constantly mix until poured ... that's too much work for me! I haven't read anything or any recommendations about mixing the two waxes (the CB135 and PB), so I don't know if that could be an issue for you. Maybe you could try again without mixing to see what it does, just to know.
     
  8. Sep 4, 2016 #8

    topofmurrayhill

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    Don't use Vybar in soy wax. It has been tried by many people over the years and doesn't do anything useful. It's for plain paraffin wax. Also, GW464 already contains the "universal additive" for soy wax.

    Soy wax is a flaked shortening. Like any solid fat, it's not really a stable product. It can have a number of different crystal structures and can transform from one to another. The crystal state of the oil affects its appearance and properties.

    You can learn to pour a given wax, at least under certain conditions, and not get frosting when the candle is first made. However, you will get it eventually. The wax will change in appearance over time. You can get the white bloom that candlemakers call frosting, the melt point of the wax can change, and the wax can even expand (don't cut the wick short or it could get swallowed).

    People who are dedicated to using soy wax often don't color it so that the frosting doesn't stand out.
     
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  9. Sep 4, 2016 #9

    KristaY

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    Thanks for this, TOMH! At least I know it's not just me doing something wrong. I made some wax tarts and a few candles several months ago then set them aside. I took them out a few days ago and the frost is significantly more prominent than when I made them. So based on your point that all soy will develop frost, do I change to another wax or just live with the appearance of the frost? Also, is it only an aesthetic problem or does it change the integrity of the candle or tart? (Such as burn pool, soot production, etc?)
     
  10. Sep 4, 2016 #10

    topofmurrayhill

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    Well, I have never been the biggest fan of soy wax because of these stability issues, and I can assure you there is no ecological or health advantage to using it, but it's popular and can be fun and there's no reason you shouldn't stick with it if you like it and are willing to live with its idiosyncrasies.

    The frost is usually thought of as an aesthetic problem. Sometimes candles won't burn the same over time, so it could be considered a little more than that. The different crystal forms of the oil actually have different melting points, so you could notice a change in the melt pool. These crystal "polymorphs" also take different amounts of space, which is how wicks can sometimes get swallowed into the wax over time.

    Mainly what you can do is practice pouring your wax so it comes out nice, then store the candles at a mild and steady temperature, and don't make so many that they sit around forever.

    Different soy waxes have different personalities, so you could certainly try out different ones and see what you like best. At least one pretty-looking and significantly frost-resistant soy wax has been developed, but it's not popular with small candlemakers because it doesn't throw scent worth a ****. Over ten years I have tried a lot of waxes plus every crafty or science-y technique under the sun. There's no magic product or formula.

    Interestingly, I found that the nicest one to work with by my reckoning was plain old GW415. Nothing exotic, no additives. It burns well and throws scent pretty well (for soy wax) and the candles can come out quite nice. That's a simple, no-fuss way to go.
     
  11. Sep 4, 2016 #11

    LilyJo

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    Don't agree with the lack of ecological benefits, for me soy is far better in terms of its green credentials and to be honest its a doddle to work with as long as you treat it with respect. Have been using CB135 since the start.

    Have been making and selling candles for over two years and dont have any issues with frosting; the hot and cold throw is stable (always dependent on the FO used). The only noticeable issue found however is that soy is affected by the harvest - so a batch this year is not likely to perform the same as next year - its a plant product so it is always subject to variations dependent on weather and harvest. These are the reasons why batch numbers and tractability are vital when selling.

    Think the trick is to find out what works for you in terms of temperature FO is added, temp the candle is poured and the consistency of where the candle is stored. Storage affects the long term viability of candles no matter what anyone says, FO can fade and huge temperature fluctuations cause the candle to expand and contract away from whatever container it is used in.

    Its always worth considering the temperature and humidity also, both affect the quality of the candle as does the speed at which it is allowed to cool - slow cooling is far better than forcing it to cool quickly.

    One thing I would say is that colouring soy wax is a bit of a nightmare - most colourants are paraffin derived and the combination of paraffin and soy plays havoc with the consistency of the finished product - any frosting will always be more apparent.

    Finally, as far as we are concerned, candles should always cure for at least a week before an initial test burn - anything less and the fragrance is affected.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2016
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  12. Sep 4, 2016 #12

    HappyGoNaturally

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    I agree that the various waxes are all different. I have not experienced the frost-development issue over time, so probably some waxes do that, but not all. As for soy candles, I can't agree with this statement: "there is no ecological or health advantage to using it" -- it's derived from a plant, not petroleum, so, yes, there are ecological or health issues/advantages, imo. I too have enjoyed the GW415, TOMH -- have you tried GW444? I'm currently comparing the two waxes side by side.
     
  13. Sep 4, 2016 #13

    topofmurrayhill

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    This renewable, ecological, non-sooting hype has been debunked many times, but there will always be a new crop of people to repeat it.

    Go to the oils section at the supermarket. Soy wax is the same thing as the bottle of Crisco soybean cooking oil you'll find there. It was produced by big companies on huge pieces of land that were cleared to grow crops. It took energy, much of it from petroleum sources, to plant it and fertilize it and water it and harvest it and refine it and hydrogenate it (to make it hard) and ship it, not to mention some of the same chemicals. That's all it is, some fat for shortening baked goods. You're scenting, pouring and burning a container of oil, not an ecological miracle.

    Nobody would take crude oil out of the ground to get paraffin wax. It's just not worth that much. Crude oil is extracted for other priorities and the paraffin wax is a by product that happens to perform superbly for candlemaking. There is no problem with using it. Paraffin and soy shortening both make sooting or non-sooting candles depending on how they are wicked. Both put exactly the same things into the air when you burn them.

    Paraffin is a natural, plant-derived product. You can hardly get more natural than something extracted from the earth. It is put through no particular transformations apart from refining it out of the crude oil. Soy oil also has to be refined, but additionally it is put through an artificial chemical transformation to harden it into flaked shortening, aka soy wax.

    These are just two things you can use to make candles, and they are both fine. Arguably paraffin is much more flexible in what you can create and produces a considerably more stable product. There is nothing wrong with using soy oil either, but there is really too much marketing hype and fraudulent research (Tong Wang) used to sell it.
     
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  14. Sep 4, 2016 #14

    LilyJo

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    I think you are completely wrong and personally I just dont happen to agree with the use of bleached petrochemicals in order to produce candles. Much as I dont agree with use petrochemical derived plastics, palm oil or recyclable containers.

    There are (and I think always will be) two schools of people who will investigate and come up with their own hypotheses to support their own argument - many people believe that paraffin wax and burning paraffin candles is completely wrong and a health hazard. There are a great many research papers that support that view and whilst there are a sizeable number of papers contradicting (not "debunking" but contradicting), in my view the jury is still out.

    As such I would rather err on the side of caution and whilst my own opinion is that I prefer soy or rapeseed candles, many other people like to use paraffin and do not accept any ecological argument. That is their entitlement; it is not up to me to lecture them or to try and change their view - people come to candle and soap making from their own standpoint and ethics and must make their own decisions on what works for them and how it impacts their ethical perspective.

    You have your view and I have mine - it is up to both of us to respect each other and let other candle makers make their own minds up. Neither of us has the benefit of 100 years of hindsight to say who is correct.
     
  15. Sep 4, 2016 #15

    The Efficacious Gentleman

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    I am no chandelier, but do consider that many plant oils can become harmful when heated, such as olive being great for use raw but not so good for hot frying. So while soy might be fine as an oil, it is still being burnt.

    Petrochemicals were also plants and animals - it is in that respect a very natural product
     
  16. Sep 5, 2016 #16

    HappyGoNaturally

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    I think there's always going to be a place for paraffin candles, but the more I learn about the composition of the material, the less there is to like in regard to issues such as indoor air quality. It (paraffin) emits hydrocarbons and contains chemicals which are not the healthiest things to breathe in on a regular basis, such as benzene.


    lol
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
  17. Sep 5, 2016 #17

    topofmurrayhill

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    I don't expect to change anyone's mind. I've been in this for a decade and I know how it goes. I just state the facts. Paraffin candles have no adverse health effect and there is no credible evidence that they do. Period.

    People make this argument hypocritically while they load up their candles with as much fragrance oil as possible, casting vastly more mystery substances into the air.

    Alkanes like paraffin are abundant throughout the universe and fall like rain on some planets, but it's hydrogenated soybean oil that's natural. Okay.
     
  18. Sep 6, 2016 #18

    HappyGoNaturally

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    I've been making candles with paraffin wax for a long time, so I don't have anything against it. However, to say that paraffin candles don't emit any toxins would be like saying that beeswax doesn't help purify the air. Of course paraffin has a down side, and now that soy wax is becoming popular, it probably is so that many people are starting to realize some things about paraffin that they hadn't thought of before, or at least not so much.

    I did a little interesting reading and I'm going to share some tidbits here with you for whatever it's worth. What I read is much more than I had anticipated, btw.

    This has to do with an area in Poland during their candle burning ceremonies for "All Saints’ Day" -- I don't know what they use in their candles, it's probably a more unrefined paraffin that we use in the U.S., but it's interesting (to me) anyway.
    (Forgive the length, but I'd like to share a bit of this.)

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Excerpt from the page I read ...

    Light aromatic hydrocarbons = BTEXS

    Tests were carried out at town-located cemeteries in Opole and Grodków (southern Poland) and, as a benchmark, at the centets of those same towns. The purpose of the study was to estimate BTEXS emissions caused by the candle burning and, equally important to examine, whether emissions generated by the tested sources were similar to the BTEXS emissions generated by road transport.

    During the festive period, significant increases in benzene concentrations, by 200 % and 144 %, were noted at the cemeteries in Opole and Grodków, as well as in toluene, by 366 % and 342 %, respectively. Styrene concentrations also increased. It was demonstrated that the ratio of toluene to benzene concentrations from emissions caused by the burning candles are comparable to the ratio established for transportation emissions.

    The test results indicate that as a result of candle and cemetery candle burning, BTEXS, mainly benzene, toluene and styrene, are emitted to the environment.

    On another note: Benzene has been shown to be a multi-organ carcinogen in animals.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    It's not my intention to say that we shouldn't burn paraffin in our homes at all, but I do feel that it's important to understand any risks that might be involved if we do it in a closed environment.
     
  19. Sep 6, 2016 #19

    The Efficacious Gentleman

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    Does it not come down to how pure the paraffin wax is? Purely on a chemical scale, the burning of paraffin wax gives you CO2 and H2O from what I have read
     
  20. Sep 6, 2016 #20

    HappyGoNaturally

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    How pure is the paraffin wax that is used for candles?

    I know there is a food grade paraffin that is refined to pull out impurities, but I don't think that's the same paraffin wax that is used in candles. If the wax that is used for candles is "pure," then why would there be a "food grade"?
     

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