Gv tallow/palm to tallow/lard?

[Essential Bliss]

So.. back in November, I bought a can of gv tallow/palm shortening just to try it out and use for testing batches.. it seemed to work just fine for that.. I’ve tried the gv all vegetable shortening too but I liked the tallow/palm one better (since palm was first ingredienot, compared to the all vegetable and crisco and more firm than both). I used the entire can and went to the same store to buy more, luckily I double checked the ingredients list! They reformulated it! Again evidently! I started googling it and found some info on the reformulation, but it was posts/ blogs from like 2015! Nothing I could find recently! What’s crazy is it was less than a month that I went back to buy more.. and I noticed this only bc I was going to order it online Walmart.com and was trying to be positive I was getting the right can.. so it seems that gv shortening tallow/palm is no longer avalible. In it’s place is gv tallow/lard.. may be for the best.. who knows.. but every soap cal i have come across has it listed gv tallow/palm it’s not updated.. anyway. I’m also confused a bit as to how to I figure out which one a lye calc is referring to? For instance.. soapcalc lists gv tallow/palm (unavailable), crisco old, and crisco new w/palm.. then lyecalc lists The same, as well as, an additional one for vegetable shortening.. and another for tallow/Chinese vegetable shortening and gives % fatty acids makeups are different and the qualities all very when comparing a recipe.. based on its how can you be precise if you don‘t know if what you have is what they list? How do I figure this out? im like a dog with a bone.. I have to tinker with it until I figure it out! Like it’s not a necessity I just need to know for me ya know? Lol

 

[ResolvableOwl]

based on its how can you be precise if you don‘t know if what you have is what they list?

You can't. There are quite some dubious and zombie records in these calculators, and now there is apparently one more. You essentially have to rely that these calculators give you numbers that are somewhere close to the factual ones.
The one thing that rescues most soapmakers in most of the cases is that saponification values of most oils are quite close together (around 0.135 for soft/hard oils, and 0.18 for lauric oils), so swapping one oil for another is unlikely to produce unsafe soap. Fatty acid profiles are another topic, but then again, a single database entry fails to represent the natural variation of FAs in an oil anyway, so you can't be sure about FAs up to ± a few % in any case.

Things you could do:

• Make your own break-down oil blend. Guess how much tallow and lard are in the shortening. If the package has a detailed nutritional information label, you can enter a pure tallow/lard recipe in a soap calculator, and tweak the percentages until you match the saturated/mono-/poly-unsaturated fats.
• Ask the manufacturer if they can provide the saponification value and/or a fatty acid profile of the product. This is rather unlikely for supermarket-grade foodstuff, but cosmetic suppliers are sometimes cooperative.
• Just use the old tallow/palm value, and make a (smallish) test batch at close to 0% superfat, to find out a) if the SAP has went up (soap would become zappy) or down (excess superfat, failing clarity test); and b) if you the level of hardness it brings is up to your expectations. When companies reformulate recipes, they are in general well aware that the properties should change as little as possible. They are probably ignorant towards small off-label use like soapmaking, but similar texture/melting behaviour inevitably needs similar FA profile (in particular, similar content of saturated FAs), so the “new” numbers likely aren't that far off from the old ones.
• If you're hyper curious/paranoid (and properly equipped), you can titrate the SAP by yourself by experiment. FA profile is out of reach for hobbyists, but there are companies that you can pay (a lot) to do this for you.

 

[Essential Bliss]

You can't. There are quite some dubious and zombie records in these calculators, and now there is apparently one more. You essentially have to rely that these calculators give you numbers that are somewhere close to the factual ones.
The one thing that rescues most soapmakers in most of the cases is that saponification values of most oils are quite close together (around 0.135 for soft/hard oils, and 0.18 for lauric oils), so swapping one oil for another is unlikely to produce unsafe soap. Fatty acid profiles are another topic, but then again, a single database entry fails to represent the natural variation of FAs in an oil anyway, so you can't be sure about FAs up to ± a few % in any case.

Things you could do:

• Make your own break-down oil blend. Guess how much tallow and lard are in the shortening. If the package has a detailed nutritional information label, you can enter a pure tallow/lard recipe in a soap calculator, and tweak the percentages until you match the saturated/mono-/poly-unsaturated fats.
• Ask the manufacturer if they can provide the saponification value and/or a fatty acid profile of the product. This is rather unlikely for supermarket-grade foodstuff, but cosmetic suppliers are sometimes cooperative.
• Just use the old tallow/palm value, and make a (smallish) test batch at close to 0% superfat, to find out a) if the SAP has went up (soap would become zappy) or down (excess superfat, failing clarity test); and b) if you the level of hardness it brings is up to your expectations. When companies reformulate recipes, they are in general well aware that the properties should change as little as possible. They are probably ignorant towards small off-label use like soapmaking, but similar texture/melting behaviour inevitably needs similar FA profile (in particular, similar content of saturated FAs), so the “new” numbers likely aren't that far off from the old ones.
• If you're hyper curious/paranoid (and properly equipped), you can titrate the SAP by yourself by experiment. FA profile is out of reach for hobbyists, but there are companies that you can pay (a lot) to do this for you.

Thanks for your reply! I'm going to try to contact the manufacturer.. and go from there. Also with zap testing? I do have a digital ph tester. Is that a sufficient alternative? Lol. Story time.. my 2 year old after Christmas... "mom I found a battery!" Oh yea? "Yea! We gotta check it to see if it's still good!" She then holds it up to her mouth and sticks out her tongue! And tests it! I was in total shock! And couldn't help but laugh! Where did she learn that one? Must have been dad! Hahah

 

[AliOop]

Sorry, but pH testing will not tell you whether a soap is lye heavy or not. It simply tells you the pH of the bar.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

gv shortening tallow/palm is no longer avalible. In it’s place is gv tallow/lard.. may be for the best.. who knows.. but every soap cal i have come across has it listed gv tallow/palm it’s not updated

TIP: To compare one FA to another, enter the first one into SoapCalc at 100%. The result shows up in the right column of #5 Soap Quality and Fatty Acids Menu. Then go down the list and select the FA you want to compare. The result shows up in the left column for easy side-by-side comparison.

Palm Oil values in the right column. Lard values in the left column

Just for fun, you could continue down the list to compare Palm Oil to Shea Butter, GV Shortening, and any other FA you like.

 

[Essential Bliss]

Sorry, but pH testing will not tell you whether a soap is lye heavy or not. It simply tells you the pH of the bar.

Thanks for the i info!!! Well good thing that's not why I bought it lol

 

[Essential Bliss]

TIP: To compare one FA to another, enter the first one into SoapCalc at 100%. The result shows up in the right column of #5 Soap Quality and Fatty Acids Menu. Then go down the list and select the FA you want to compare. The result shows up in the left column for easy side-by-side comparison.

Palm Oil values in the right column. Lard values in the left column
View attachment 63848
Just for fun, you could continue down the list to compare Palm Oil to Shea Butter, GV Shortening, and any other FA you like.

I saw somewhere that someone was comparing the FAs on the back of the gv tallow/palm (old one) and was somehow relating it to the fa in soap calc. I will try to find it again it eludes me lol