Gums are killing my lovely lather!

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Ashraf Emam

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Well, I love HEC and I love Xanthan gum OK ! but, that been said, they are killing my shampoo lathers. I mean my shampoo still lather for sure but they are badly effecting the lather. especially HEC it also gives a bad touch like an egg white !!
I am not using more the .05 of each per KG, and I test the shampoo for lathering before I add any of them, my shampoo was really WOW!!! but after adding any of them it became ... OK not bad .. you can do better next time .. You know what I mean?
I am expert in liquid soap by the way, face and shower, so please if any one have a successful natural alternative please tell me, don't go to the standards things and predictable stuff (I mean my Ph is good, my dilution ratio is good, my oils are good, I am good too, just hit me with the magical solution : ) )
 

KimW

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Have you ever tried cetyl alcohol? Cetyl Alcohol-THK-CTAL-01

I agree with @Zany_in_CO - sometimes we have to embrace the difference between our handcrafted products and OTC products. The same is often true even with baking. But this doesn't mean our handcrafted products are inferior.

Sometimes we might find the difference is preferable by other people. My lip balms are typically pretty soft, for lack of a better word. They hold up in the summer and in a pocket (they don't melt), but are always soft. When I told my "sister" I was trying to reformulate it so that it would be more like ChapStick, she yelled, "Noooo!" Apparently, she and her friends prefer the softness of my lip balms because it makes them easier and faster to apply. So, according to my lip balm "customers" (I don't sell), my lip balm is better than ChapStick. Just a thought. :)
 

Ashraf Emam

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Embrace the less-than-OTC type viscosity of handmade Hair & Body Shampoo. View attachment 54634
I am going to invade the market soon, I will be one of those OTC I hope .. but going natural instead, and I need the client to focus on the beauty of the natural products, not to sacrifice any feature they are adapted to.
 

Ashraf Emam

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Have you ever tried cetyl alcohol? Cetyl Alcohol-THK-CTAL-01

I agree with @Zany_in_CO - sometimes we have to embrace the difference between our handcrafted products and OTC products. The same is often true even with baking. But this doesn't mean our handcrafted products are inferior.

Sometimes we might find the difference is preferable by other people. My lip balms are typically pretty soft, for lack of a better word. They hold up in the summer and in a pocket (they don't melt), but are always soft. When I told my "sister" I was trying to reformulate it so that it would be more like ChapStick, she yelled, "Noooo!" Apparently, she and her friends prefer the softness of my lip balms because it makes them easier and faster to apply. So, according to my lip balm "customers" (I don't sell), my lip balm is better than ChapStick. Just a thought. :)
Yes, you were right! but you've also said the magic word : "I don't sell" ... I am selling :)
 

DeeAnna

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Yes, you were right! but you've also said the magic word : "I don't sell" ... I am selling :)
I fail to see why you are dismissing the opinion of a person just because they do not sell. It is not to your advantage to be discounting thoughtful advice, especially since you very specifically asked for help, and comments like this will definitely not win you any brownie points with others. If the advice doesn't fit, have the courtesy to say "thank you" or give the post a "like" and leave it at that.

If you believe non-sellers have nothing to offer you in terms of how to improve your product or how to appreciate its qualities from a different perspective, then you are disqualifying a large majority of competent folks here, including me. We are all consumers, whether we sell or not, and we are all makers, whether we sell or not.
 

cmzaha

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Good you are selling so I will not add any comments to that point, but I will mention you better do more research on selling a Soap based shampoo. There are other ways to thicken your LS but I will keep them to myself.

We had/have a well-known "Natural Hair system" made manufactured by a cosmetologist to the stars here, when his products first came out his magic Shampoo was Soap based. I told my husband there is going to be a problem and there was, he was sued big time. He had enough money and big Lawyers that he settled and was able to not accept the blame for the charges, the product was pulled and the ingredients cannot be found. I only know because I looked it up when the product came on the market during the "Natural Craze." His main line now consists of a cleaning conditioner. In your country girls have very long beautiful hair and once damaged from high ph the hair cannot be repaired. I will say, your hair type may be more resilient than our average hair in the US, ethnic hair varies, but high ph can still damage hair or time. I am a retired cosmetologist and saw many fads go in and out over the years. In order to get LS to a safe ph for hair, you would no longer have soap. The average ph of healthy hair is 4.5 to 5.5 and no vinegar rinses will not really stop the damage since some is absorbed into the hair shaft once the ph raises the cuticle of the hair shaft.

Just something for you to research since you are not going to believe me.

WEN hair loss scandal exposed dirty underbelly of personal care products
 

KimW

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Ashraf Emam

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Hi DeeAnna, First of all, let me explain what I mean by "I am selling" .. it simply means I would be attacked by other competitors in the market, and they would approach to attacking my products from any and every angles .. it doesn't mean I don't appreciate non-sellers opinions, because I do appreciate them especially the consumer opinions and certainly I am not here spending time to win this "brownie" things like you said.
KimW .. I am sorry if you didn't understand it this way .. I am not an English native speaker, and my English expressions are not perfect like yours.
Secondly, who said that my PH is high (I didn't say that, but "cmzaha" did!) and it will ruin or damage the customer's hair .. why you assumed something I didn't said? and "cmzaha" mentioned this WEN thing? and she also assumed that I am "not going to believe " her !! again , why you assume something simply not true ?

DeeAnna I didn't like the way you talk to me and I believe you were aggressive some how in your speech. I really believe you owe me an apology.
 
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Peachy Clean Soap

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Good you are selling so I will not add any comments to that point, but I will mention you better do more research on selling a Soap based shampoo. There are other ways to thicken your LS but I will keep them to myself.

We had/have a well-known "Natural Hair system" made manufactured by a cosmetologist to the stars here, when his products first came out his magic Shampoo was Soap based. I told my husband there is going to be a problem and there was, he was sued big time. He had enough money and big Lawyers that he settled and was able to not accept the blame for the charges, the product was pulled and the ingredients cannot be found. I only know because I looked it up when the product came on the market during the "Natural Craze." His main line now consists of a cleaning conditioner. In your country girls have very long beautiful hair and once damaged from high ph the hair cannot be repaired. I will say, your hair type may be more resilient than our average hair in the US, ethnic hair varies, but high ph can still damage hair or time. I am a retired cosmetologist and saw many fads go in and out over the years. In order to get LS to a safe ph for hair, you would no longer have soap. The average ph of healthy hair is 4.5 to 5.5 and no vinegar rinses will not really stop the damage since some is absorbed into the hair shaft once the ph raises the cuticle of the hair shaft.

Just something for you to research since you are not going to believe me.

WEN hair loss scandal exposed dirty underbelly of personal care products
Awww its good to know your a retired HD. I grew up in the field, my mother was a HD' Instructor in the beauty colleges' salon owner. Such A Fun & Exciting Field. Hair Products are tricky to Create, as you know far to well. IMHO Thats why most hairproducts are "created by a Chemist" more so then a artisan" If you Will" no insult to our Artisan's here' by any means. Its a lot of science to create a great hair product to fit the masses. A friend asked me to create a hair shampoo' I said "NEVER" will that happen. 🤣 😃😉.
 
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Quanta

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Hi DeeAnna, First of all, let me explain what I mean by "I am selling" .. it simply means I would be attacked by other competitors in the market, and they would approach to attacking my products from any and every angles .. it doesn't mean I don't appreciate non-sellers opinions, because I do appreciate them especially the consumer opinions and certainly I am not here spending time to win this "brownie" things like you said.
KimW .. I am sorry if you didn't understand it this way .. I am not an English native speaker, and my English expressions are not perfect like yours.
Secondly, who said that my PH is high (I didn't say that, but "cmzaha" did!) and it will ruin or damage the customer's hair .. why you assumed something I didn't said? and "cmzaha" mentioned this WEN thing? and she also assumed that I am "not going to believe " her !! again , why you assume something simply not true ?

DeeAnna I didn't like the way you talk to me and I believe you were aggressive some how in your speech. I really believe you owe me an apology.
You posted this on the liquid soap area of the forum. Is your shampoo not made with soap? Soap is fats reacted with lye, which will always have a pH too high to use on hair. That's just what soap is. You might not know the right English words but you did say soap. So you are the one who (perhaps mistakenly) said that your shampoo had a high pH, cmzaha only pointed out why it's not good to have such a high pH in a hair care product.
If you are making shampoo with things like sodium laureth sulfate, cocamidopropyl betaine and decyl glucoside, then that is not liquid soap but rather surfactants, and you have posted in the wrong area of the forum and you need to have an admin move your thread to the appropriate area.
 

Peachy Clean Soap

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Hi DeeAnna, First of all, let me explain what I mean by "I am selling" .. it simply means I would be attacked by other competitors in the market, and they would approach to attacking my products from any and every angles .. it doesn't mean I don't appreciate non-sellers opinions, because I do appreciate them especially the consumer opinions and certainly I am not here spending time to win this "brownie" things like you said.
KimW .. I am sorry if you didn't understand it this way .. I am not an English native speaker, and my English expressions are not perfect like yours.
Secondly, who said that my PH is high (I didn't say that, but "cmzaha" did!) and it will ruin or damage the customer's hair .. why you assumed something I didn't said? and "cmzaha" mentioned this WEN thing? and she also assumed that I am "not going to believe " her !! again , why you assume something simply not true ?

DeeAnna I didn't like the way you talk to me and I believe you were aggressive some how in your speech. I really believe you owe me an apology.
.
 

Zany_in_CO

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@Ashraf Emam With all due respect, :) since an apology is not likely, perhaps an explanation might be helpful. Both @cmzaha and @DeeAnna are long-time and highly-respected members of SMF for their commitment (time given to helping others), experience and expertise. As such, they tend to speak their minds when it comes to sharing their wisdom. You only need to look below their avatars to see how valuable they are to the group:

cmzaha - Messages 11,770 - Reaction score 11,123
Dee Anna - Messages 13,356 - Reaction score 18,977

The "Reaction score" refers to posts that helped other members.

By comparison:
Ashraf Emam, (Joined Oct 20, 2020) - Messages 14 - Reaction score 11
You've been here a little over 4 months and have yet to make a contribution to the group, except by posting questions where members may benefit by the responses given. So that puts you in the highly suspicious area of being here for one reason only, i.e., to take advantage of our collective experience and expertise to further a self-centered goal. Put another way, I hope we can agree, you are lucky we're willing to help you accomplish that goal, given the circumstances. ;)

Then there is me:
I will be celebrating my 4th Anniversary on SMF in a few days, March 9, 2021.
It may surprise you to learn that when I first joined SMF both cmzaha & DeeAnna shared their wisdom with me, at times in a manner I found hurtful. It was only after a period of time that I realized they had the best of intentions, that is, to help me better understand the science of making bath and body products.

Like you, I also came across as condescending, although, like you, that was NOT my intent, and when that happened, it was brought to my attention without rancor or aggression, i.e., just stating the fact. So, since I perceive you as a kind person, I did not find your comment to @KimW offensive. DeeAnna did and spoke up when no one else here was likely to. Think of the "mother hen" protecting her "chicks". In a way, all of us here are her "chicks" because she rules the roost from the rarefied perch of being the best-of-the-best contributors on SMF. :nodding:

ETA: The subject of "Shampoo" has been discussed many times. You would do well to use the magnifying glass icon at the upper right corner of this page to Search the subject. As an expert in the area of "shampoo" vs. "soap as shampoo" cmzaha knows whereof she speaks. It would be best to keep her knowledge in mind going forward. :thumbs:

I wish you all the best in that endeavor.
 
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