GLDA, a modern alternative to EDTA

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cmzaha

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EDTA also makes soap hard. Not sure that SG does. One day I’m going to fly to the US and buy some soap stuff. It will be cheaper than the postage the individual companies charge

CMzaha I am wondering if your citric acid forms crystals due to your process? I don’t get crystals. I dissolve my CA in water at the time I make my soap. I don’t add it to the water before I make a masterbatch of lye.
I do not remember the percentages I was using, but what I started with did not help but did not form crystals on the outside of the soap, when I upped the percentage the crystals formed. DeeAnna and I realized it was the Citric Acid causing it, so I changed to Tetrasodium EDTA which stoped the crystals and helped with the soap scum. I also masterbatched up my citric acid solution.
 

steffamarie

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Just ran out of EDTA so I ordered some GLDA from Essential Wholesale. On their website, they mention a 0.5% - 10% usage range, just wondered if anyone had any insight on what would be the best usage rate for it as a chelator? I used EDTA at 0.5% of batch weight. I am thinking of trying it at 1% since it seems it may be slightly less effective than EDTA.
 

CatahoulaBubble

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This is interesting but to be honest I didn't even know EDTA existed until today. I learned soap making from my grandmother and honed it by experimenting with different oils once I discovered soap calc. I've never added EDTA to my soap and I've never had DOS even after 3 years of storage.
 

Mobjack Bay

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Has anyone heard of or tried Trilon M as a chelator? The chemical name is methylglycinediacetic acid (MGDA)*. Apparently, Trilon M was the first product to meet the US EPA’s Design for Environment criteria for chelating and sequestering agents (in 2011). There’s an old press release about it here, and links for technical info and msds are provided at a supplier site called Saveoncitric. It’s pricey for a 10 lb bag. https://www.saveoncitric.com/trmpo10lb.html According to what I read, it works well at high pH, has low toxicity to aquatic organisms and is biodegradable.
 

penelopejane

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This is interesting but to be honest I didn't even know EDTA existed until today. I learned soap making from my grandmother and honed it by experimenting with different oils once I discovered soap calc. I've never added EDTA to my soap and I've never had DOS even after 3 years of storage.
EDTA also makes soap hard and gives it a "strange" (to me) feel - sort of plasticy.
 

sabina iyer

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Hi All,
I have been hunting all over internet last week for a soap recipe that lathers well in hard water. I found that EDTA or sodium gluconate would help to increase the lather. Now today i can across a new one called sodium cocoyl isetheoniate powder. Looks like this it helps lather even in hard water. Have any of you used it and compare which one is better
 

lsg

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SCI is a surfactant. I use it in shampoo and other B&B products.
 

DeeAnna

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SCI (sodium cocoyl isetheoniate) is a synthetic detergent (surfactant), not a chelator. You can't directly compare a syndet with a chelator because they don't function the same way.

By adding SCI to soap, you're making a "combo bar" which is a mixture of soap and non-soap detergents. Sure, a combo bar might lather better in hard water, but only because the SCI is not affected by hard water. It's not that you're helping the soap to lather better.
 

sabina iyer

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Thanks for pointing the difference. I guess it is better not to use SCI in my soaps as it would strip off oils and would be drying for skin. I would stick to chelator
 

DeeAnna

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SCI is a good synthetic detergent in that it is reasonably mild on the skin and has decent lather. Study up on its properties and you'll learn that for yourself.

The issues with SCI is that it is not lye-based soap, which is the main interest of most of us. And SCI is not a chelator, if you want to use a chelator to lengthen shelf life and reduce soap scum. Chelators are the topic of discussion in this thread -- we aren't discussing surfactants.

If you would like to discuss the benefits of adding SCI or other syndets to soap, you might get more responses and better ideas if you start your own new thread on that topic.
 

sabina iyer

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SCI is a good synthetic detergent in that it is reasonably mild on the skin and has decent lather. Study up on its properties and you'll learn that for yourself.

The issues with SCI is that it is not lye-based soap, which is the main interest of most of us. And SCI is not a chelator, if you want to use a chelator to lengthen shelf life and reduce soap scum. Chelators are the topic of discussion in this thread -- we aren't discussing surfactants.

If you would like to discuss the benefits of adding SCI or other syndets to soap, you might get more responses and better ideas if you start your own new thread on that topic.
Thanks for the info. I was under the impression that a chelator would add up the lather and SCI would double up as chelator and surfactant.
 

DeeAnna

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SCI is only a synthetic detergent. It is not a chelator. I'd like to read the source that says it's a chelator -- do you have a reference so I can look that up?
 

Mobjack Bay

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Has anyone heard of or tried Trilon M as a chelator? The chemical name is methylglycinediacetic acid (MGDA)*. Apparently, Trilon M was the first product to meet the US EPA’s Design for Environment criteria for chelating and sequestering agents (in 2011). There’s an old press release about it here, and links for technical info and msds are provided at a supplier site called Saveoncitric. It’s pricey for a 10 lb bag. https://www.saveoncitric.com/trmpo10lb.html According to what I read, it works well at high pH, has low toxicity to aquatic organisms and is biodegradable.
Bumping this one. Has anyone heard of MGDA/Trilon M?
 

Michele50

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I wonder how GLDA compares to EDTA in terms of preventing DOS when in combination with ROE.

Have any studies been done to look at that aspect in regards to how GLDA works in combination with ROE, the way Dr. Kevin Dunn did with his studies on DOS prevention?


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Suppliers in the US:

https://www.essentialwholesale.com/product/2625/tetrasodium-glutamate-diacetate
https://viacheminc.com/product/glda-chelate-dissolvine-gl-47-s/ (can request a sample)
I've copied/pasted part of a PDF from https://chelates.nouryon.com/siteassets/Brochure-dissolvine-gl-technical-brochure.pdf
This 14 or so page PDF contains a bunch of info about GLDA. I'm thinking that what I highlighted in yellow IS speaking about GLDA and it states something about rancidity which causes DOS. I've provided the link to the site and you'll find the info below on page 12.

upload_2019-12-7_3-26-53.png
 

DeeAnna

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The entire passage you show are valid descriptions of what any chelator does. Irish Lass uses EDTA in her lotions to reinforce her preservative due to EDTAs action on killing bacteria (the last part of the passage refers to this.)

What Earlene is wondering is whether there is a specific, positive interaction between GLDA and the antioxidant ROE. She's referring to the tests Dunn did to see which pairings of various chelators and antioxidants were the most effective. He didn't look at GLDA in his experiments.

Speaking from memory, he looked at the various combinations of the antioxidants ROE and BHT paired with the chelators EDTA and citrate. Some pairings didn't perform any better than using just one chemical alone; other pairings performed markedly better.
 

earlene

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Yes, you are correct, DeeAnna, that is what I was wondering about; when used in combination with ROE. Since I will most likely always use ROE in my oils, I like to know how a chelator works in combination with ROE. It would certainly be useful to know if it acts as well as or better than the EDTA/ROE combination, or if is somehow less effective in combination. That is what I would want to know before switching from a combo I already find effective.
 

Kcryss

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I've been using CA to combat soap scum, but based on recent discussions and subsequent research it looks like GLDA is a good "green' alternative to EDTA and EDTA works much better than CA.

Has anyone tried GLDA? Does it work better than CA, EDTA etc.?
 

cmzaha

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The entire passage you show are valid descriptions of what any chelator does. Irish Lass uses EDTA in her lotions to reinforce her preservative due to EDTAs action on killing bacteria (the last part of the passage refers to this.)

What Earlene is wondering is whether there is a specific, positive interaction between GLDA and the antioxidant ROE. She's referring to the tests Dunn did to see which pairings of various chelators and antioxidants were the most effective. He didn't look at GLDA in his experiments.

Speaking from memory, he looked at the various combinations of the antioxidants ROE and BHT paired with the chelators EDTA and citrate. Some pairings didn't perform any better than using just one chemical alone; other pairings performed markedly better.
I also use EDTA in my lotions and will most likely never change it.
 

DeeAnna

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"...Has anyone tried GLDA? Does it work better than CA, EDTA etc.?..."

I think the general consensus of those who have used citrate and also used EDTA is that EDTA seems to be more effective than citrate.

GLDA is hard to buy in small quantities. I'm looking instead at trying sodium gluconate after I use up the EDTA I have on hand. It is sold in smaller quantities and seems to be as or more effective than GLDA based on manufacturer's literature.
 

Kcryss

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"...Has anyone tried GLDA? Does it work better than CA, EDTA etc.?..."

I think the general consensus of those who have used citrate and also used EDTA is that EDTA seems to be more effective than citrate.

GLDA is hard to buy in small quantities. I'm looking instead at trying sodium gluconate after I use up the EDTA I have on hand. It is sold in smaller quantities and seems to be as or more effective than GLDA based on manufacturer's literature.
Oh, good to know. Thanks!
 
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