Germaben II Preservative

[Carl]

I got my package from WSP today and got my Germaben II that I want to try as a preservative in liquid soap.

Seems like you add it at about 1/2%

Question 1:
Can I add it to some LS that I made last weekend? Already been diluted and in a container?

Or do I need to start fresh and add it at the dilution phase?

So if I had 32 ounces of paste and I dilute with 20 ounces of water, then I have 52 ounces total weight
which would equal .26 Ounces of preservative.

Sound right?

Thanks in advance!!

 

[DeeAnna]

I thought germaben II was good only for pH of 3 to 7.5. Liquid soap will have a pH significantly higher than that, so I'm not sure you're going to get much good from using this preservative in LS.

 

[Carl]

I thought germaben II was good only for pH of 3 to 7.5. Liquid soap will have a pH significantly higher than that, so I'm not sure you're going to get much good from using this preservative in LS.

No germaben II is good for all PH ranges (according to WSP website).

It's the other one (starts with a Phe) that is restrictive. Sorry, I can't remember the name.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Gobsmacked! Carl is correct. This preservative is formulated for use in LS... note "no pH restrictions".
http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/products/germaben-ii.aspx
Carl, I've been making liquid soap since 2004 and never used a preservative. That being said, every soaper has their own versions that may or may not need a preservative. It's just a matter of preference.

In regard to your questions, I'd advise you to contact WSP about how and when to use it... simply because this is a new one on me and probably most of our members.

Thank you for starting this thread. It's always good to learn something new from a Newbie!

ETA: Common Name Ingredient Listing (FDA Approved):
Propylene Glycol, Diazolidinyl Urea, Methylparaben, Propylparaben

 

[cmzaha]

Lotioncrafter still lists it at max ph of 7.5

 

[SaltedFig]

@Carl, It looks like WSP have made a mistake on their website.

WSP have this notice against the preservative:
Formerly known as Germaben II. Ashland Chemical is the manufacturer and owner of the trademark Germaben II. We have received legal notice that small suppliers may no longer use the brand name of the product.Therefore on 11/20/2017 we have changed the product name as they have requested.
From: http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/products/germaben-ii.aspx

While WSP list the pH range on the safety data sheet attached to the product as "No data available" (*see PDF), this seems to have been erroneously translated to "Formula pH: No restrictions" on their website (http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/products/germaben-ii.aspx)
* PDF: http://www.crafters-choice.com/PDFs/ProductDocs/2202-SDS.pdf

The registered patent holder and manufacturer of Germaben II (ISP was purchased by Ashland) lists the pH range as 3 to 7.5
https://www.ashland.com/industries/personal-and-home-care/skin-and-sun-care/germaben-ll-and-lle

 

[Carl]

@Carl, It looks like WSP have made a mistake on their website.

WSP have this notice against the preservative:
Formerly known as Germaben II. Ashland Chemical is the manufacturer and owner of the trademark Germaben II. We have received legal notice that small suppliers may no longer use the brand name of the product.Therefore on 11/20/2017 we have changed the product name as they have requested.
From: http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/products/germaben-ii.aspx

While WSP list the pH range on the safety data sheet attached to the product as "No data available" (*see PDF), this seems to have been erroneously translated to "Formula pH: No restrictions" on their website (http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/products/germaben-ii.aspx)
* PDF: http://www.crafters-choice.com/PDFs/ProductDocs/2202-SDS.pdf

The registered patent holder and manufacturer of Germaben II (ISP was purchased by Ashland) lists the pH range as 3 to 7.5
https://www.ashland.com/industries/personal-and-home-care/skin-and-sun-care/germaben-ll-and-lle

Wow thanks for all the research. Now let's see if I can get WSP to give me a refund since their website is wrong. It even lists Liquid Soaps as possible uses.

So back to the original question, let's pretend I have a preservative that has the acceptable PH range.

Can I just add it to the already dilute soap?

Or start fresh?

 

[newlife]

I found this article and if you read through it , it has good info regarding liquid soap and preservatives
http://www.allsortsofsoap.com/preservatives.html

 

[DeeAnna]

I was finding much the same info that SaltedFig was, but I didn't want to argue the point.

As far as your question, if the diluted soap is cooled below the temp limit for the preservative, yes, just add the preservative and mix well. This also assumes your preservative is also water soluble.

 

[Meshaal]

So back to the original question, let's pretend I have a preservative that has the acceptable PH range.

Can I just add it to the already dilute soap?

Or start fresh?

As far as my understanding, you can use it in the batch you already made a week ago. However, let's pretend that it got contaminated with some kind of bacteria. What will happen is that the preservative is going to kill the bacteria and you will be rubbing your skin with a soap contains dead bacteria.

I haven't done a research on it but this is my best thought on this.

You could make an experiment. Put two samples of the soap in two small tubes, and add the preservative in one of them. Monitor them until you see changes in either of them and compare the result.

Many of the things you will learn in the soap making community, I believe, are based on personal experiments.

 

[SaltedFig]

Wow thanks for all the research. Now let's see if I can get WSP to give me a refund since their website is wrong. It even lists Liquid Soaps as possible uses. ...

You're welcome

Asking for a refund is an excellent idea, as doing so will alert WSP to any potential error and gives them an opportunity to offer you a product that more closely suits your needs. If it does turn out that the product is tested as suitable for liquid soap, it also gives them the opportunity to provide you with testing information (to support their claim that it is suitable for liquid soap). Either way, I do believe in contacting the supplier when an error is suspected.

The information contained on this page may interest you: makingskincare.com/preservatives/

 

[Carl]

I sent WSP an email about 2 or 3 days ago.

They updated their website for the product. I asked them if I can exchange the one that I bought to the the mistake on the website.

They never responded!

 

[SaltedFig]

I sent WSP an email about 2 or 3 days ago.
They updated their website for the product. I asked them if I can exchange the one that I bought to the the mistake on the website.
They never responded!

It's great that they've already got onto updating their website Carl!
At this point, if you are wanting them to deal with the exchange urgently, I would call them up (2 or 3 days isn't a very long time, so a friendly call might resolve this a bit quicker for you ).

 

[cmzaha]

I would call them

 

[Clarice]

Hi all - I have just read through this thread and followed the various links and still find myself a bit confused.

For those of you who use preservatives - do you have one "go to" preservative that you use for everything, or do you keep various preservatives on hand for use with different recipes?

Do you have a favorite "high pH" preservative?

Do you use a pH meter to determine the pH of your products? If so - do you have a recommendation?

Finally - for liquid soap - do you measure the pH after dilution? I assume yes, because the pH of the water will affect the final pH, right?

Thanks! Clarice

 

[lsg]

I use Liquid Germall Plus for water soluble products and Phenonip for anhydrous products.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I don't use any preservative in liquid soap. "Fully saponified soap requires no preservative." Source: Making Natural LIQUID SOAPS: Herbal Shower Gels / Conditioning Shampoos / Moisturizing Hand Soaps by Catherine Failor (Paperback)
I know I'm considered "Old School" when it comes to LS, but the basics have served me well over 14 years, and other LSers who sell commercially as well. It's not that I haven't tried new things as they came along, I have, and I do understand why some prefer to use those options in their process. I always come back to the basics.

If you check the top selling (non-syndet) liquid soaps like Dr Bronner's and many others, their list of ingredients does not include preservative. Most include antioxidants like ROE among others, and/or essential oils that have preservative qualities to help prevent the soap from going south.

 

[DeeAnna]

...Most include ... essential oils that have preservative qualities to help prevent the soap from going south.

Huh. If soap contains EO with preservative qualities, then that means the soap affirmatively contains a preservative. Might be an off-label use of the EO, but still a preservative.

 

[Clarice]

May I clarify - for those who DO use a preservative in their liquid or cream soaps. Do you add it to the paste when it has reached a suitable temperature, or do you add it when you add your liquid and/or other additives.

Thank you!

 

[Carl]

May I clarify - for those who DO use a preservative in their liquid or cream soaps. Do you add it to the paste when it has reached a suitable temperature, or do you add it when you add your liquid and/or other additives.

Thank you!

I added it POST dilution, but while still semi warm (increase in temperature increases solubility). The total weight can still change a bit during dilution (evaporation), which is why I added it after dilution.