Formulating Liquid Soap

Soapmaking Forum - Soap & Candle Forums

Help Support Soapmaking Forum - Soap & Candle Forums:

IrishLass

Staff member
Admin
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
17,532
Reaction score
11,432
Location
Right here, silly!
If you're inquiring about the 65% olive oil GLS formula, I use 10.19oz/289g glycerin, no matter what method I use to dissolve the KOH (i.e., the pharmacist method, et al). If I'm using water to dissolve the KOH (an equal amount of water as per KOH), I add the 10.19oz glycerin to the lye solution as soon as the KOH is fully dissolved into the water, then I add the whole water/glycerin/KOH solution to my warmed oils.


IrishLass :)
 

Soapprentice

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2016
Messages
522
Reaction score
419
Location
Telangana, India
Thank you so much for the reply, so we use the default lye concentration and split the water weight for glycerin and water. Right?
 

Soapprentice

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2016
Messages
522
Reaction score
419
Location
Telangana, India
If you're inquiring about the 65% olive oil GLS formula, I use 10.19oz/289g glycerin, no matter what method I use to dissolve the KOH (i.e., the pharmacist method, et al). If I'm using water to dissolve the KOH (an equal amount of water as per KOH), I add the 10.19oz glycerin to the lye solution as soon as the KOH is fully dissolved into the water, then I add the whole water/glycerin/KOH solution to my warmed oils.


IrishLass :)
We messaged at almost the same time and I didn’t see your post.
Thank you so much IrishLass, so nice of you to share your recipe so people like me can try and learn for ourselves.
 

Soapprentice

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2016
Messages
522
Reaction score
419
Location
Telangana, India
If you're inquiring about the 65% olive oil GLS formula, I use 10.19oz/289g glycerin, no matter what method I use to dissolve the KOH (i.e., the pharmacist method, et al). If I'm using water to dissolve the KOH (an equal amount of water as per KOH), I add the 10.19oz glycerin to the lye solution as soon as the KOH is fully dissolved into the water, then I add the whole water/glycerin/KOH solution to my warmed oils.


IrishLass :)
Is the glycerine amount for 2 lb batch ?
 

Soapprentice

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2016
Messages
522
Reaction score
419
Location
Telangana, India

DeeAnna

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
13,732
Reaction score
20,340
Location
USA
Yes, the KOH weight needs to be different because it's a different chemical than NaOH and each KOH molecule weighs more than NaOH. When you measure out a given weight of either one, what you're really trying to do is measure a given number of molecules. If KOH molecules weigh more, you're going to have to measure more KOH by weight to get the correct number of molecules.

The lye concentration you use to make liquid soap is more about convenience and practicality than it is anything else. Many liquid soapers use a 25% lye concentration (3:1 water:lye ratio). At this concentration, the paste is reasonably soft, so it's easier to stir and a bit easier to dilute.

If you use a higher lye concentration (lower water:lye ratio) that means there is less water, the paste will be harder to stir, and it can be more difficult to dilute. I've done 33% lye concentration a time or two and the soap was fine, so if you want to go there, there's no big reason why not. I have to say I prefer 25% lye concentration.

Some use a 50% lye concentration to make their paste; the one soaper I know of who does that also relies on sodium lactate to get the paste diluted. I've never tried it, so I can't say much about this personally.

If you use a lower lye concentration (below 25%), the paste will contain more water and will be softer. This might seem to be a good thing, except in my experience lye concentration at 20% or less can make it difficult to get the soap batter to a stable emulsion, even with lots of mixing and fiddling.

Some LS making methods call for all of the water, including dilution water, right from the beginning. These methods require the use of a continuous mixer, something most of us don't have, and hours of mixing, which most of us don't want to get into.
 

Soapprentice

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2016
Messages
522
Reaction score
419
Location
Telangana, India
Oh.. I’m not comparing KOH to NaOH, the KOH Irish lass uses is 98g and the soapee gave me with 3% sf, the lye has to be 103g.
 

DeeAnna

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
13,732
Reaction score
20,340
Location
USA
Now I understand your concern! It wasn't clear to me that you were wondering about IL's KOH of 98 g versus your KOH of 103 g.

IL's 98 grams of KOH appears to be based on a KOH purity of about 95% assuming a superfat of 3%. If I recalculate the KOH weight based on 90% KOH purity and the same 3% superfat, the answer is about 103 g.
 

Soapprentice

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2016
Messages
522
Reaction score
419
Location
Telangana, India
Now I understand your concern! It wasn't clear to me that you were wondering about IL's KOH of 98 g versus your KOH of 103 g.

IL's 98 grams of KOH appears to be based on a KOH purity of about 95% assuming a superfat of 3%. If I recalculate the KOH weight based on 90% KOH purity and the same 3% superfat, the answer is about 103 g.
Oops I forgot about the purity... I feel like this is the 1st time I made soap.... I just hope mine comes out fine.
 

Soapprentice

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2016
Messages
522
Reaction score
419
Location
Telangana, India
Recently, I've been experimenting with adding synthetic surfactants to liquid soap, and I like the results. My goal is to produce a more mild product through the use of less coconut oil, and through the mixing of surfactants with different ionic natures.

Using less coconut is easy--just use less. As was noted in a previous post, a squirt of liquid soap tends to apply more soap to the skin than a bar, and as a result, the product can seem more cleansing (than a bar with the same FA profile). Reducing the coconut will help, but it also decreases the lather. Additionally, I find that LS is less quick to lather than a bar, and the thicker the soap, the harder it is to work it into a lather (at least, in my experience). The sum of all that, is that a product with less coconut may clean, but is not easy to use (and provides few of the sensorial aspects that I have come to expect). That is, unless you use a thin soap and a foamer bottle (my preference for hand washing!), or introduce some synthetic surfactants.

In spite of the scare-mongering around the internet, surfactants don't have to be scary, and I'm pleased to hear that you have some on hand and are willing to try it in liquid soap; a small amount of surfactant may go along way towards making your end product more mild and more easy to lather.

Generally speaking, mixing surfactants of different ionic natures (cationic, anionic, non-ionic, amphoteric) is a good thing as it produces a milder product. Recently, I've been mixing liquid soap (anionic) with coco glucoside (non-ionic), and my observation is that the resulting product is more mild on my hands (I have not tried it in the shower yet; maybe today), it lathers quicker and is thicker. I was able to manage all of this with just 6% coco glucoside (and 24% soap, 10% added glycerin, 60% water). I'd also like to note that the only LS I have on hand right now is formulated with 29% coconut. It's more than what you want to use, but it's important to note that even with that high amount, the product is more mild with the addition of a non-ionic surfactant.

This net result of a milder product ( I believe) only works with mixing different ionic strengths of surfactants. I assume that your coco betain is cocamidopropyl betaine; if so, it is an amphoteric surfactant and as a result of the pH of soap, will be negatively charged when mixed with liquid soap. I don't know enough of the chemistry to know if that makes it "anionic," but my thought process is that it won't be as mild when mixed with soap as it would be if mixed into an acidic solution.

With all that said, I say give it a try! Start small and if you don't get the results you're looking for, look at a different surfactant; I'd recommend something non-ionic. Unless you have one on hand, I'd stay away from the cationics; I once tried using a cationic conditioning ingredient (polyquat 10) in liquid soap and while it left a great skin feel and thickened the soap better than anything else I've tried, it STUNK, and eventually produced some sort of light sediment. Sediment I can live with--but not stink.
Hi.. it’s been a while but I just got the time to try the surfactants in liquid soap. I want to know how and when do we add them to soap? While dilution or after?
 

Saranac

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2017
Messages
272
Reaction score
293
Location
?
Hi.. it’s been a while but I just got the time to try the surfactants in liquid soap. I want to know how and when do we add them to soap? While dilution or after?
Because the coco glucoside that I use is thick on its own, and it tends to thicken my liquid soap, I find it easier to incorporate into my dilution water first, and then add the soap paste.

But if this is your first try, I would suggest that you dilute your paste first and then you can experiment with smaller batches to see how much surfactant you need. Remember, the reason I add the surfactant is to aid lather--I find that they lather quicker (and with less effort) than liquid soap, so it helps to work the soap up quicker. My "hybrid" formula is only about 3% coco glucoside.
 

Soapprentice

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2016
Messages
522
Reaction score
419
Location
Telangana, India
Because the coco glucoside that I use is thick on its own, and it tends to thicken my liquid soap, I find it easier to incorporate into my dilution water first, and then add the soap paste.

But if this is your first try, I would suggest that you dilute your paste first and then you can experiment with smaller batches to see how much surfactant you need. Remember, the reason I add the surfactant is to aid lather--I find that they lather quicker (and with less effort) than liquid soap, so it helps to work the soap up quicker. My "hybrid" formula is only about 3% coco glucoside.
Thank you. I will give it a try.
 

Yooper

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2011
Messages
259
Reaction score
106
Location
Upper Michigan
One thing that really works for me to thicken liquid soap is to use a mix of KOH and NaOH for the liquid soap. It really does work, and I never add anything to my soap at all. Not much NaOH, about 70% KOH and 30% NaOH for my smallish batches of 2 pounds neat soap. It might be worth a try to someone who wants to avoid any additives.

I love a foaming dispenser, since it uses much less soap (less drying, and actually feels rich), and you have to thin the liquid soap a bit anyway to use it. So a little goes a long way, and my favorite recipes foam and suds pretty well anyway but it's awesome in the shower and at the sink for hand soap.
 

Soapprentice

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2016
Messages
522
Reaction score
419
Location
Telangana, India
One thing that really works for me to thicken liquid soap is to use a mix of KOH and NaOH for the liquid soap. It really does work, and I never add anything to my soap at all. Not much NaOH, about 70% KOH and 30% NaOH for my smallish batches of 2 pounds neat soap. It might be worth a try to someone who wants to avoid any additives.

I love a foaming dispenser, since it uses much less soap (less drying, and actually feels rich), and you have to thin the liquid soap a bit anyway to use it. So a little goes a long way, and my favorite recipes foam and suds pretty well anyway but it's awesome in the shower and at the sink for hand soap.
So, I tried this, but when I dilute the soap, it looks milky and there is no zap to say that milkyness due to unreacted lye.... is it common when we use NaOH?
 

hampan

Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2017
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
I'm not sure how to post an off-topic question. I have read all your advice and made my first batch of liquid soap today but the KOH was old. It hadn't been opened and looked white and fresh but although I whisked it 10 min, there was no applesauce or mashed potato or taffy changes. It was very hot and got a bit thicker but that's all. I've covered it and will check it in the morning. How will I know if it should be thrown out?
 

DeeAnna

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
13,732
Reaction score
20,340
Location
USA
People often do not see all the changes in appearance that the soap is apparently "supposed" to do. Your soap may be fine.

In a day or so, cautiously check the soap for zap. If it does not zap, then try diluting a sample of the soap. If the fat has not fully saponified, it will make the soap appear cloudy to opaque and the extra fat will probably separate from the main portion of the soap and form a floating white layer. This separation might take a little time -- perhaps a few days or so.

If that happens, come back and ask for help. If the sample of diluted soap does not separate, then it's most likely fine. The diluted soap might be clear or it might be cloudy, depending on the recipe you used -- liquid soap is not necessarily always transparent.

To start a new thread, go to the main index for the forum in which you want to post and click "Post New Thread" in the upper right hand part of the screen. You would go here to start a new thread in this forum: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/forums/liquid-soap-and-cream-soap-forum.40/
 

Kim Pyrros

Honestly Everything
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2018
Messages
13
Reaction score
4
Location
Stony Brook, New York
People often do not see all the changes in appearance that the soap is apparently "supposed" to do. Your soap may be fine.

In a day or so, cautiously check the soap for zap. If it does not zap, then try diluting a sample of the soap. If the fat has not fully saponified, it will make the soap appear cloudy to opaque and the extra fat will probably separate from the main portion of the soap and form a floating white layer. This separation might take a little time -- perhaps a few days or so.

If that happens, come back and ask for help. If the sample of diluted soap does not separate, then it's most likely fine. The diluted soap might be clear or it might be cloudy, depending on the recipe you used -- liquid soap is not necessarily always transparent.

To start a new thread, go to the main index for the forum in which you want to post and click "Post New Thread" in the upper right hand part of the screen. You would go here to start a new thread in this forum: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/forums/liquid-soap-and-cream-soap-forum.40/
Ya know I tried to make liquid soap and it wouldn’t reconstitute
 

Kim Pyrros

Honestly Everything
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2018
Messages
13
Reaction score
4
Location
Stony Brook, New York
Ya know I tried really hard to make liquid soap. Followed directions, looked ok but I couldn’t reconstitute properly, it was soap in water- separated and didn’t like look or smell great. Barely any lather and watery, like well- water. Big disappointment - it was good to hear it can b done.
 

Latest posts

Top