EDTA vs sodium citrate

[Todd Ziegler]

I have read many posts and articles regarding edta & sodium citrate and as expected I have read many opinions on how much to use and its effectiveness.

I was wanting to know from those who have used either or both. At what rate did you use your particular choice.

All my soaps are at least 40% lard, up to 55% at the highest. I believe that I am going to use EDTA but I am interested in usage rates for both. I have seen recommendations of 0.25% - 0.5% of total weight. Practical knowledge is of the greatest interest to me.

 

[glendam]

I do not remember exact numbers, however, I was using a lye calculator that gave me options for both and I just used that (lyecalc.com) I believe they show the percentage there.
The one thing with citric acid is that you need to add more lye to compensate (the calculator also tells you how much). I had an instance where I compensated for the lye but forgot to add the citric acid, it scared me about having lye heavy soap but did not, after all.

 

[Todd Ziegler]

I do not remember exact numbers, however, I was using a lye calculator that gave me options for both and I just used that (lyecalc.com) I believe they show the percentage there.
The one thing with citric acid is that you need to add more lye to compensate (the calculator also tells you how much). I had an instance where I compensated for the lye but forgot to add the citric acid, it scared me about having lye heavy soap but did not, after all.

I went with the EDTA and on some recipes I am using it paired with BHT.

 

[gardengeek]

I use SC. I haven't ever tried EDTA. I do have pretty hard water so I use 2.25% PPO. I've been pleased with it. I started out using Citric Acid but got tired of making an allowance for it in the lye, besides the fact that I forgot to make the adjustment several times. Figured I was safer using SC, less to confuse me

Here are links to @DeeAnna 's articles
https://classicbells.com/soap/EDTA.asphttps://classicbells.com/soap/citrate.asp

 

[AliOop]

Thanks for posting that, @gardengeek. I am switching from CA and trying to decide whether to use sodium gluconate or sodium citrate. My specific question about the citrate was whether I needed to make a lye adjustment, and although I was pretty sure I didn't, I didn't find where anyone else explicitly said so. Off to order some SC now, thanks!

 

[earlene]

I have read many posts and articles regarding edta & sodium citrate and as expected I have read many opinions on how much to use and its effectiveness.

I was wanting to know from those who have used either or both. At what rate did you use your particular choice.

All my soaps are at least 40% lard, up to 55% at the highest. I believe that I am going to use EDTA but I am interested in usage rates for both. I have seen recommendations of 0.25% - 0.5% of total weight. Practical knowledge is of the greatest interest to me.

Todd, I have been using EDTA in conjuction with ROE for about 4 years now. The EDTA is for the scum prevention, but they also work together to fend off DOS. This is based on Dr. Kevin Dunn's research.

The amount of EDTA I use successfully for my soap at my location (hard water, but we do use a water softener as well) is 0.1% of total batch size. Since it is doing dual duty, I use this number rather than the lower 0.05%, which I used when I first started using it.

I add the ROE (rosemary oleoresin) to the oils when I first open them, and sometimes when adding a lot of hard oils, I also add a couple of drops to the melted oils.

If your lard is processed lard purchased from a grocer, then it may already have BHT in it, in which case, you might consider what it is contributing DOS prevention as per Dr. Dunn's article I linked above. And choose your chelator based on that.

 

[cmzaha]

I have tried them all and much prefer SC with EDTA at .5% each this has deterred DOS in my tallow /lard soap and really help with soap scum. My lard also contains BHT but any percentage over 27% I would still get DOS until I started using SC and EDTA.

 

[gardengeek]

I have tried them all and much prefer SC with EDTA at .5% each this has deterred DOS in my tallow /lard soap and really help with soap scum. My lard also contains BHT but any percentage over 27% I would still get DOS until I started using SC and EDTA.

I only started making lard soaps in the last six months and haven't seen any DOS yet, but now I'm worried. Does lard/tallow have a tendency towards DOS? Do you know why that is?

 

[DeeAnna]

Rancidity can be situational. Carolyn has had trouble with high-lard soaps going rancid. I haven't seen this problem in my high lard soaps. If you aren't seeing rancidity in soaps that are 6 months old, I'd say that's a good indicator the soap you're making in your situation is doing fine.

Why the difference? I don't know.

Keep in mind that rancidity (whether all-over rancidity or dreaded orange spots of rancidity aka DOS) can happen to anyone's soap. Rancidity is a normal decomposition process for fats and fatty acids and things made from fats and fatty acids -- like soap.

If a person hasn't yet had rancid soap, they might get lucky and continue to dodge that bullet, but I think it's unrealistic to assume they're immune to rancidity. Just fortunate.

Every major soap manufacturer uses some system for reducing the chance of rancidity -- usually a combination of an antioxidant and a chelator. We should too.

 

[Todd Ziegler]

Todd, I have been using EDTA in conjuction with ROE for about 4 years now. The EDTA is for the scum prevention, but they also work together to fend off DOS. This is based on Dr. Kevin Dunn's research.

The amount of EDTA I use successfully for my soap at my location (hard water, but we do use a water softener as well) is 0.1% of total batch size. Since it is doing dual duty, I use this number rather than the lower 0.05%, which I used when I first started using it.

I add the ROE (rosemary oleoresin) to the oils when I first open them, and sometimes when adding a lot of hard oils, I also add a couple of drops to the melted oils.

If your lard is processed lard purchased from a grocer, then it may already have BHT in it, in which case, you might consider what it is contributing DOS prevention as per Dr. Dunn's article I linked above. And choose your chelator based on that.

Thanks for your input. Since my lard has BHT already in it, I think I will SC in conjunction with the EDTA.

 

[gardengeek]

Rancidity can be situational. Carolyn has had trouble with high-lard soaps going rancid. I haven't seen this problem in my high lard soaps. If you aren't seeing rancidity in soaps that are 6 months old, I'd say that's a good indicator the soap you're making in your situation is doing fine.

Thank you, DeeAnna. I'm going to continue with what I'm doing and leave the EDTA option open for the future.