Dual Lye Shave Soap - Making it fluid

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Mary1421

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Thank you everyone for your thoughts. I added sodium lactate and glycerin to the batch and cooked the batch around 165/167 degrees. It still set up really fast. So I did a ton of video wathcing and settled on a recipe where the video clearly shows there is some time to get the soap in to molds. Same results - it set up really fast. So I took her recipe and put in in to Soapee Next (the calculator she used), I aslo put the same recipe in saponiCalc - Soap Calculator. Both calculators came out roughly the same using a 40/60% NaOH .87 oz/KOH 2.05 oz (saponicalc) and NaOH .87 oz and KOH 2.03 oz (soapee). I use soapmaker - it gives me NaOH 1.07 oz and KOH 1.79 oz (2 parts NaOh to 3 parts KOH - which should be 40/60%, unless I did my math wrong). In order to make soapmakers numbers come close to the other 2 calculators I have to do a 1.12 part NaOH to 2.16 parts KOH - which is .88 oz NaOH/2.08 oz KOH. Is soapmaker wrong or is my parts incorrect.
 

Mary1421

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Update: I did an update on soapmaker and this was in the release notes - hopefully this solves my issues.

  • Dual lye recipes:
    • Lye weights were not calculated correctly based on ratio of NaOH to KOH if KOH purity was less than 100%.
      The total amount of lye was correct for saponification, but the weight ratio was not exactly as specified.
    • Recipe totals showed an incorrect total volume.
 

Professor Bernardo

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Nearly all KOH on the calculators is used at a 90% purity level. This is because KOH is so hygroscopic, i.e., it attracts water like crazy.

I suggest you increase the water to lye ratio; that is, if the calculator is telling you 30% lye to water ratio, drop that down to a 25% lye to water ratio and see how much more workable your soap will become. I had to do that with my dual lye shaving soap because I use a 3" x 24" PVC pipe mold for making pucks.

The saponiCalc calculator defaults water/lye percentage at 33%, try adjusting it to around 25% and see how it works. My dual lye recipe uses a 22.22% lye to water percentage or a 1 to 3.5 ratio. Yes, adding more water will increase the need for more air drying after saponification, but it also greatly increases the workability of the traced batter to make it be able to pour into molds or spoon into individual molds. Take my word for it... it works very well. I sell my soaps also, and have had no complaints... yet. Also, the sodium lactate I add helps to improve the release of the product from the mold when the soap has completely cooled and solidified after about 20 hours or so.
 
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Rsapienza

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Is it becuase shave soap is being made via hot process? While hot process can benefit from the cure time, it's not required?
No, I think I figured out where I got that from. I went and skimmed over Songwind’s shave soap thread and it came back to me. Many on that thread were trying their shave soap immediately and reporting great results…great lather, slip, and not harsh on skin at all. One soaper said they did not notice any change after 2 weeks. Someone mentioned maybe due to the high KOH. I make mine for personal use so I must’ve just mentally noted that it could be used immediately. I don’t think my BF or I have noticed much of a difference between fresh and cured. One puck lasts FOREVER, so by the time I’m on to the next, a couple months have gone by.
 

Mary1421

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Nearly all KOH on the calculators is used at a 90% purity level. This is because KOH is so hygroscopic, i.e., it attracts water like crazy.

I suggest you increase the water to lye ratio; that is, if the calculator is telling you 30% lye to water ratio, drop that down to a 25% lye to water ratio and see how much more workable your soap will become. I had to do that with my dual lye shaving soap because I use a 3" x 24" PVC pipe mold for making pucks.

The saponiCalc calculator defaults water/lye percentage at 33%, try adjusting it to around 25% and see how it works. My dual lye recipe uses a 22.22% lye to water percentage or a 1 to 3.5 ratio. Yes, adding more water will increase the need for more air drying after saponification, but it also greatly increases the workability of the traced batter to make it be able to pour into molds or spoon into individual molds. Take my word for it... it works very well. I sell my soaps also, and have had no complaints... yet. Also, the sodium lactate I add helps to improve the release of the product from the mold when the soap has completely cooled and solidified after about 20 hours or so.
Thank you for your help and suggestions. I'm currently using a 28% ratio but will adjust it down a little bit more. I haven't tried a new batch since doing the soapmaker software update. The percentages between the various calculators still don't agree. Soap maker is now calculating a 40/60 split (1.13 to 1.70 oz) and mathematically that looks correct. That's still off from soapee and saponicalc (.87/2.03). I think that's something like a 1 to 4.75 lye ratio (though admittedly at this point my brain is rebelling against math). It's a bit frustrating but since soapmaker is what what I use to track my supplies I will play with percentages based on it and see how it goes.
 
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Johnez

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Hey Mary, if you're curious of what wet shavers think of pours that aren't perfectly smooth, check this out:

https://www.reddit.com/r/wicked_edge/comments/pvfc7o
All in the eye of the beholder. ;+)

I understand the desire to get the result you are really set on, especially being your goal is a nice smooth puck. Kind of interesting how perception works tho!
 

Mary1421

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Hey Mary, if you're curious of what wet shavers think of pours that aren't perfectly smooth, check this out:

https://www.reddit.com/r/wicked_edge/comments/pvfc7o
All in the eye of the beholder. ;+)

I understand the desire to get the result you are really set on, especially being your goal is a nice smooth puck. Kind of interesting how perception works tho!
So true :) Mine are a lot smoother than that and definitely not orange LOL.
 

Mommawolfe

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Hi, all! newbie here, but not to soap making. I have been making hot process soap for years (instant gratification thing). Hot process soap can indeed be used "right away", however, I find that it is much nicer to use if it sits for 1-2 weeks to allow for evaporation of the water to occur and make a harder bar. Today, i am making shave soap...first attempt! Wish me luck! ...please, and thank you!
 

Johnez

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Hi, all! newbie here, but not to soap making. I have been making hot process soap for years (instant gratification thing). Hot process soap can indeed be used "right away", however, I find that it is much nicer to use if it sits for 1-2 weeks to allow for evaporation of the water to occur and make a harder bar. Today, i am making shave soap...first attempt! Wish me luck! ...please, and thank you!
Good luck! I'm also both an HPer and a shave soaper. I'm a relative noobie here, so can't offer too much advice, but there's a few more experienced people making shave soaps that come along here often. The search function is very useful here and I've found many a discussion around questions I've had by doing searches like "shave stearic" or something along those lines.

What recipe are you going to try?

Edit-also, you might want to make a post in the New Member Introduction Forum (New Member Introductions), it'll help us help you. :)
 
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Mommawolfe

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This is the recipe i liked the best of the 100 or so I looked at from Modernsoapmaking. The soy wax is at 49%, and LOTS of extra water to keep it fluid. It is cooking as I type...sucks not being able to sleep...HOWEVER, i make a lot of soap in my spare time!

Shaving Soap Formula Used

  • 325g Soy Wax (11.46 oz)
  • 195g Coconut Oil (6.97 oz)
  • 65g Cocoa Butter (2.3 oz)
  • 65g Castor Oil (2.3 oz)
  • 796g Water (28 oz)
  • 44g Sodium Hydroxide (1.55 oz) 40%
  • 73g Potassium Hydroxide (2.61 oz) 60%
 

Mommawolfe

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Good luck! I'm also both an HPer and a shave soaper. I'm a relative noobie here, so can't offer too much advice, but there's a few more experienced people making shave soaps that come along here often. The search function is very useful here and I've found many a discussion around questions I've had by doing searches like "shave stearic" or something along those lines.

What recipe are you going to try?

Edit-also, you might want to make a post in the New Member Introduction Forum (New Member Introductions), it'll help us help you. :)
 
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Professor Bernardo

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This is the recipe i liked the best of the 100 or so I looked at from Modernsoapmaking. The soy wax is at 49%, and LOTS of extra water to keep it fluid. It is cooking as I type...sucks not being able to sleep...HOWEVER, i make a lot of soap in my spare time!

Shaving Soap Formula Used

  • 325g Soy Wax (11.46 oz)
  • 195g Coconut Oil (6.97 oz)
  • 65g Cocoa Butter (2.3 oz)
  • 65g Castor Oil (2.3 oz)
  • 796g Water (28 oz)
  • 44g Sodium Hydroxide (1.55 oz) 40%
  • 73g Potassium Hydroxide (2.61 oz) 60%
This is quite similar to the recipe I use except I use stearic acid in lieu of the Soy wax. For some reason, and this is my personal opinion, I just thought that the stearic acid gave a better lather and creaminess. I put some palm oil (RBSO) in mine formula too.

The extra water, as you noted, really does make it more fluid and workable. I was concerned when first modifying my formula with more water, but found that it was much easier to pour into the 3" x 24" PVC mold I use for my shaving pucks. Plus the fact that it really didn't affect the soap so far as affecting the saponification or firmness of the end product, although it was a little softer and slightly tackier.

If you would be willing, it would be nice to see some photos of the end product! Keep us posted please.
 

Mommawolfe

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It is a personal preference, but I don't like to use palm oil products, which most stearic acid comes from. Soy wax is 87ish% stearic acid, and should give me a pretty solid bar.
 

Professor Bernardo

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It is a personal preference, but I don't like to use palm oil products, which most stearic acid comes from. Soy wax is 87ish% stearic acid, and should give me a pretty solid bar.
So you make bars instead of round pucks in your shave soap? Just curious is all.
Regarding stearic vs soy wax, it is a personal preference thing for sure. No arguments from on that... LOL!

This is one of my shave soaps I make. It's scented with a Classic Barber Shop scent.

IMG_0164.JPG
 

Professor Bernardo

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They are round "bars" must Be a PA, thing! Unless it is liquid soap, it's a "bar" , round, , balled, puck, heart shaped...doesn't matter, its a bar of soap. LOL
They were probably called "pucks" because some Canucks drinking Molson's beer came up with the term during a hockey fight they were watching while waiting for hockey game to actually begin. "Hey Ernie! Ya know my shaving soap looks like a hockey puck only white, ya know? Eh?"

P.S. No offense intended to my Canadian friends... most don't mind being called Canucks. As a matter of fact, I wish more Americans were like Canucks, eh?
 

Mommawolfe

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Well, update...the batch seized!...I did salvage it, though. The seizure was my fault...got impatient, and broke out the mixer...oops! won't do that again! I do believe it will be just fine. I will post pics probably tomorrow when I take it out of the molds. I used a little bit of the leftovers (as I always do) ...even for brand spanking new soap, it lathers wonderfully! I always use my fresh soap, this way if anyone gets burned, it is me...lol
 

Zany_in_CO

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