Dual lye article

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Not having seen the soaping video, i note that the article about the two hydroxides is not taking about soap at all. It is talking about comparing a cleaning solution made of NAOh and water, vs one made with KOH and water.

I am not a chemist, but I don’t think you can directly translate that to soaps made with the different lyes, because unlike the water+ hydroxide solution, none of either lye remains in properly made soap.

My understanding of the main use of KOH is to create either a liquid soap (when used at 100%) or a softer solid soap or paste (when used at a lesser percentage in a mix with NAOh.

Again, I haven’t watched the soaping video you mentioned, so I don’t know if I’m really addressing whatever claims she was making about dual-lye soap. To the extent she says it cleans better due to using KOH, I am skeptical. If she says it cleans better due to the addition of CA, probably what she meant is that it leaves behind less soap scum, bc CA acts as a chelator (not a cleaner per se).

Hopefully one of our more chemistry-minded folks will chime in!
 
A fair bit of the "ecleaningmag" article is okay and factual given its focus on using KOH or NaOH solutions for cleaning greasy surfaces.

I find this statement is truly off the wall, however --

"....At the molecular level, potassium hydroxide is also slightly smaller than sodium hydroxide; therefore, it can penetrate oil molecules faster than sodium hydroxide, thus breaking the oil’s hold on surfaces quicker. ..."

When you use KOH or NaOH for making soap or cleaning greasy stuff, it's not the MOLECULE that is doing the cleaning. In water, these alkalis dissociate (break apart) into OH ions and K or Na ions. If you look at the size of the ions, the K (potassium) ion is larger than an Na ion, so the author's belief that it's smaller and thus can clean better makes no sense.

As far as the soaper using KOH and NaOH in her soap, yeah, it's a legitimate thing one can do. Back in the day when people made lye from ashes of wood and other plants, the soap was a mixed potassium and sodium soap, and I'm sure this mixed alkali soap cleaned as well as our pure sodium soap or pure potassium soaps do.

KOH makes soap more soluble in water, which is why it can be helpful if included in bar soap recipes that are (a) high in stearic or palmitic acids (high lard, palm, butters) or (b) high in oleic acid (high olive oil and other HO oils). Adding KOH will not greatly affect the solubility of a soap that's already highly water soluble -- a 100% coconut oil soap is a perfect example.

I have no idea why the soap maker cites the article as justification for making a dual lye soap -- they don't seem to be related. Also a 60:40 ratio of NaOH:KOH is going to make a fairly soft bar soap. That ratio is more typical of a shave soap/croap recipe that's supposed to have a softer paste texture than a bar soap that should be firm. Maybe she's wanting a softer soap, however.

But if you want a physically harder bar soap, you can get very nice results with just 5% to 10% KOH. At 5%, which is what I use routinely, the hardness of the bar isn't affected. One benefit of using a bit of KOH is you can reduce the coconut oil in the recipe, and still get a soap that lathers beautifully.

The addition of 2% citric acid is not helping the cleaning ability exactly. The citrate formed by adding the citric acid to soap is a chelator. A chelator will help reduce soap scum, making the soap more effective.

But if the soap maker is not also adding the additional alkali that will be consumed by the citric acid, she's also increasing the superfat in this soap. Higher superfat will reduce the cleaning effectiveness of a soap.
 
She did address the additional lye. There is just so much bad information out there to begin with and I don't get the whole video thing. IMO, if you're not completely educated on what you are actually doing, you certainly shouldn't be making an informational video about it. Her reasoning for the dual lye had to do with that article and the smaller molecules cleaning better or something like that. I had known reasons for doing dual lye in CP, like for recipes high in lard or tallow, or even high oleic soaps, but I was surprised I had never heard anything remotely close to this (like many of us, I have read every soap article I can get my hands on).OK...rant over🙄🙄
 
But if the soap maker is not also adding the additional alkali that will be consumed by the citric acid, she's also increasing the superfat in this soap. Higher superfat will reduce the cleaning effectiveness of a soap.
so I was playing around with the Soapmakingfriend.com soap calc. I want to add CA to my liquid dish soap. I’ve never use this soap calculator but when I add the citric acid as an additive it automatically calculates the the additional alkali... correct? That’s a pretty cool calculator!

had to edit to remove the bad word I accidentally typed...🙄
 
Yep, @violets2217, you're right -- it calculates the extra lye neede to react with citric acid.

Bear in mind that a chelator added to soap is not going to do much to control soap scum in a sink (or clothes washer or tub) full of water. You can't pack enough chelator into soap to get that kind of performance. It is going to do the best job of controlling soap scum on your dishcloth or sponge or bath cloth -- anything where there's a minimum amount of water in proportion to the soap.

I talk more about chelators, what they do, and what their limitations are on my website -- Table of contents | Soapy Stuff
 

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