Does this ingredient list make sense?

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narnia

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I found this shampoo bar on etsy. I am assuming that these ingredients are in descending order:

Apple cider vinegar, Goat milk, Goat milk kefir, Raw honey, Castor oil, Olive oil, Lard, Shea butter, Nettle powder, Rosemary, Peppermint, Tea tree, Bentonite clay

I did not know that you could use ACV in soap! Even more surprising is that it is the first ingredient...in greatest quantity.

Does it look like the ingredients are NOT listed in order of quantity? I can't imagine there being more honey or castor oil in it than OO or lard....
 

cmzaha

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I found this shampoo bar on etsy. I am assuming that these ingredients are in descending order:

Apple cider vinegar, Goat milk, Goat milk kefir, Raw honey, Castor oil, Olive oil, Lard, Shea butter, Nettle powder, Rosemary, Peppermint, Tea tree, Bentonite clay

I did not know that you could use ACV in soap! Even more surprising is that it is the first ingredient...in greatest quantity.

Does it look like the ingredients are NOT listed in order of quantity? I can't imagine there being more honey or castor oil in it than OO or lard....
They did not list the lye so I certainly would not trust them and believe me it is not Shampoo, it is Soap. :think: Soap bad, Shampoo good. No I will not get back on my soap box...:silent:
 

narnia

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They did not list the lye so I certainly would not trust them and believe me it is not Shampoo, it is Soap. :think: Soap bad, Shampoo good. No I will not get back on my soap box...:silent:
ah...yes...if they were not going to list the lye, then I guess they should have written "saponified.....whatever"

Thank you, ISG! That thread was very helpful!! I can ssee now, how the vinegar would be placed high on the list of ingredients. However, the others don't make sense to me (with my limited knowledge) being in the order that they are listed.

I don't think that this particular soaper was using ACV for the purpose of hardening. My thought was that it was added to do away with the need for an ACV rinse after using the shampoo bar.
 
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Obsidian

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I would say this soap isn't labeled properly. If they did use that much ACV in the hopes of bringing the PH down to a neutral level, all they did was increase the SF. I've learned not to to read labels on etsy soaps unless I'm looking to purchase something particular, otherwise just turn away and don't drive yourself crazy trying to make sense of a messy label.
 

amd

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Oops.... I might be doing my labels wrong too. I list mine: liquid used, NaOH, oils largest to smallest weight, additives (clay, fo/eo, SL, color etc). Should I be listing everything by weight largest to smallest?
 

shunt2011

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Oops.... I might be doing my labels wrong too. I list mine: liquid used, NaOH, oils largest to smallest weight, additives (clay, fo/eo, SL, color etc). Should I be listing everything by weight largest to smallest?

Yes, everything by weight from highest to lowest and anything 1% or less it doesn't matter if I'm not mistaken. Which is usually additives like clay, color, etc.
 

Susie

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Is it necessary in the US to list NaOH? I may be mistaken in thinking that it is what remains in the soap rather than what goes in.
 

kchaystack

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I read somewhere you either list what goes in the pot, or what comes out. So one would list liquid and lye, the other would include glycerin and the sodium -ate compounds
 

The Efficacious Gentleman

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Is it necessary in the US to list NaOH? I may be mistaken in thinking that it is what remains in the soap rather than what goes in.
I read somewhere you either list what goes in the pot, or what comes out. So one would list liquid and lye, the other would include glycerin and the sodium -ate compounds
I'm not an expert on US regs, but as I understand it, you would have to have the "after" list actually assessed so that it can be accurately listed, otherwise it is also not a valid option.
 

kchaystack

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I'm not an expert on US regs, but as I understand it, you would have to have the "after" list actually assessed so that it can be accurately listed, otherwise it is also not a valid option.
From Marie Gale's site:

http://www.mariegale.com/ingredient-labels-soap/

An ingredient declaration can state what goes into the pot or what comes out of the pot. Since soap has a chemical reaction that occurs, that gives two different ways to present the ingredients.
 

The Efficacious Gentleman

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From further down -

The problem with declaring the ingredients based on what comes OUT of the pot is that you don’t (normally) know exactly how much water, glycerin, and unsaponified palm, coconut and olive oils are still in the soap – so you can’t put them in the right order.
 

narnia

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I have read that you can list them as they went in the pot or as "saponified oils: blah, blah, blah..." And then list the additives after the list of saponified oils.
 

kchaystack

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From further down -

The problem with declaring the ingredients based on what comes OUT of the pot is that you don’t (normally) know exactly how much water, glycerin, and unsaponified palm, coconut and olive oils are still in the soap – so you can’t put them in the right order.
Well sure. I was not saying that one way was better than another. I am just saying I read you COULD do it either way.

I have read that you can list them as they went in the pot or as "saponified oils: blah, blah, blah..." And then list the additives after the list of saponified oils.
Actually if you read her blog (and she is the authority on this as far as many around here are concerned, very good info there) she said NOT to use the saponified oils bit.
 

cmzaha

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I really wonder about the labeling what comes out of the pot. I remember reading on FDA's site at one time they do not recognize the word "saponified", so the labeling has to be what goes in the pot in descending order, other the the <1%. This does cause some conflict with Gales book on labeling. Sorry I never saved the link, but it was somewhere in their soap labeling information. Also I remember if you do decide to label your soap whether it would be considered a cosmetic or soap it has to be labeled properly.
 

Serene

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From my understanding this is the rule within the US

  1. Ingredients above 1% need to be listed in order of concentration
  2. Ingredients 1% or below can be listed in any order
  3. Exception: Color ingredients are listed at the end
Also, the names of the ingredients must be those found in the INCI (The International Nomenclature of Cosmetic Ingredients) dictionary.


In the case of soap it means that listing Sodium Hydroxide/Potassium Hydroxide is not necessary due to the fact that after saponification, you are not washing your body with lye, but with soap.
You must list the name of the ingredients as they are left after saponification.


For example: Castor Oil becomes Sodium Castorate, Palm oil becomes Sodium Palmate, etc.


You can list it with the name of the oil in Parentheses after the INCI name for the benefit of the customer who may not know what Sodium Castorate is. The listing would go something like this:


Ingredients: Sodium Palmate (Palm Oil), Sodium Castorate (Castor Oil), etc


Sere

The boring stuff- http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/Labeling/Regulations/ucm126438.htm

and the more specific. http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/Labeling/IngredientNames/ucm2005218.htm

Shunt and I are both correct as there is no objection by the FDA.

International “Harmonization” of Ingredient Names

Cosmetic companies sometimes ask FDA about identifying botanicals only by their Latin names, identifying color additives only by the “CI” numbers used in the European Union, or using terms from other languages, such as “Aqua” and “Parfum” instead of “Water” and “Fragrance.” Under the FPLA, however, ingredients must be listed by their “common or usual names,” and FDA does not accept these alternatives as substitutes. But FDA does not object to their use in parentheses following the common or usual name in English (or Spanish, in Puerto Rico). Here are some examples:

  • Water (Aqua)
  • Fragrance (Parfum)
  • Honey (Mel)
  • Sweet Almond (Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis) Oil
  • FD&C Yellow No. 5 (CI 19140)
you cant go wrong by using both.
 
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shunt2011

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Standard ingredient names are to be used. If you want to use INCI they go into () is my understanding.
 

cmzaha

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From my understanding this is the rule within the US

  1. Ingredients above 1% need to be listed in order of concentration
  2. Ingredients 1% or below can be listed in any order
  3. Exception: Color ingredients are listed at the end
Also, the names of the ingredients must be those found in the INCI (The International Nomenclature of Cosmetic Ingredients) dictionary.


In the case of soap it means that listing Sodium Hydroxide/Potassium Hydroxide is not necessary due to the fact that after saponification, you are not washing your body with lye, but with soap.
You must list the name of the ingredients as they are left after saponification.


For example: Castor Oil becomes Sodium Castorate, Palm oil becomes Sodium Palmate, etc.


You can list it with the name of the oil in Parentheses after the INCI name for the benefit of the customer who may not know what Sodium Castorate is. The listing would go something like this:


Ingredients: Sodium Palmate (Palm Oil), Sodium Castorate (Castor Oil), etc


Sere

The boring stuff- http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/Labeling/Regulations/ucm126438.htm
That is correct. You do not use the word Saponified, as you stated you use the saponified name of the oil. If labeling what goes in the pot lye has to be stated

Standard ingredient names are to be used. If you want to use INCI they go into () is my understanding.
Yep. Looks like the FPLA tried to get FDA to change the way inci is included but FDA refused so it stands either use common names or common names with inci in ()
 

narnia

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Yes...this discussion was good.

Does anyone else have any comments on my OP question? It wasn't just about the ACV but if the rest of the ingredients made any sense in the order that they are listed.
 

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