Does anyone want to help experiment with vegan 'lard' soap?
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I’m going to be making lard soap this weekend, too 
. I have some lard in the freezer that I brought back from my early summer trip to Vermont. Maybe I will be inspired by @Ladka and go ahead and render it. Or maybe not, because it’s leaf lard from around the kidneys and I could use it to make pie instead. I like pie .
. I have some lard in the freezer that I brought back from my early summer trip to Vermont. Maybe I will be inspired by @Ladka and go ahead and render it. Or maybe not, because it’s leaf lard from around the kidneys and I could use it to make pie instead. I like pie .I’m going to be making lard soap this weekend, too
Ladka
Well-Known Member
Off the topic a bit: I'm interested in this pie, have never heard of it. I only found recipes for cookies and doughnuts using kidney lard. Can you please write the recipe for the pie, perhaps in private mail (Conversations) or in another thread if this one is not appropriate,I’m going to be making lard soap this weekend, too
I sent you a message!
Hmmm I see I've neglected this thread a bit, so here's an update!
A few days after making the original lard-replacement recipe I got inspiration for another recipe (same approach, different oils) so those who exchanged got 2 small pieces. They're easily distinguishable as the first batch is a bit yellowish (I think both because of the oils used and because there was some orange in the eo blend I used).
They both traced quickly, though the second batch seemed to be a tad slower. I'm getting really curious what makes lard such a slow tracing oil, as I'm pretty sure it's not the FA profile.
One of the soaps of the second batch got a hint of dos, so I'm watching it like a hawk. Haven't seen it on the other soaps so I hope it was a one-off
There are several people participating in the exchange, because I wanted to have input from different soapers who regularly use lard. I don't think I know exactly what to look for in a soap that makes it feel like lard.
I met @Ladka and @dibbles in person and we exchanged soaps already, so I have 2 home-rendered lard soaps (leaf lard and regular lard) from ladka and one commercial lard soap from dibbles to compare (plus some beautiful soaps with more balanced lard recipes). I'm sending small testers to @Hennyfer and @Mobjack Bay and if all goes well, I'll also get a small tester from Mobjack Bay.
I'm really surprised there's so much difference between the different types of lard, even with the same recipe! So I did end up with a bunch of lard soap, but that's ok, I'm learning a lot from trying out different types.
A few days after making the original lard-replacement recipe I got inspiration for another recipe (same approach, different oils) so those who exchanged got 2 small pieces. They're easily distinguishable as the first batch is a bit yellowish (I think both because of the oils used and because there was some orange in the eo blend I used).
They both traced quickly, though the second batch seemed to be a tad slower. I'm getting really curious what makes lard such a slow tracing oil, as I'm pretty sure it's not the FA profile.
One of the soaps of the second batch got a hint of dos, so I'm watching it like a hawk. Haven't seen it on the other soaps so I hope it was a one-off
There are several people participating in the exchange, because I wanted to have input from different soapers who regularly use lard. I don't think I know exactly what to look for in a soap that makes it feel like lard.
I met @Ladka and @dibbles in person and we exchanged soaps already, so I have 2 home-rendered lard soaps (leaf lard and regular lard) from ladka and one commercial lard soap from dibbles to compare (plus some beautiful soaps with more balanced lard recipes). I'm sending small testers to @Hennyfer and @Mobjack Bay and if all goes well, I'll also get a small tester from Mobjack Bay.
I'm really surprised there's so much difference between the different types of lard, even with the same recipe! So I did end up with a bunch of lard soap, but that's ok, I'm learning a lot from trying out different types.
I'm sorry it's taken so long for me to come back with the recipes and results.. Let's get right into it!
Lard recipe:
80% Lard
20% Coconut oil
5% SF
Vegan recipe 1:
40% Avocado oil (unrefined, refined is hard to find here)
38.4% Cocoa butter (refined)
21.6% Coconut oil
3% SF*
(Lard is replaced by 50% Avocado, 48% Cocoa butter, 2% Coconut oil)
*Searching online I found that lard has 0.8% unsaponifiables, cocoa butter has 0.3%, coconut oil has 0.8-1.5% (I assumed 1% for ease of calculation) and avocado oil has 4-9% unsaponifiables.
Assuming an average of 6% unsaponifiables for avocado oil, I calculated the average amount of unsaponiables of the lard replacement in this recipe as follows: 0.5x6+0.48x0.3+0.02x1%=3.0344%
To correct for unsaponifiable content of Lard, I subtracted 0.8%: 3.0344-0.8=2.2344% unsaponifiables more in the replacement recipe than in Lard itself.
The lard replacement recipe was used at 80% of the total recipe, so 0.8x2.2344=1.78752% more unsaponifiables more in the total vegan recipe than in the lard recipe. Therefore I decided to subtract 2% of Superfat to make up for the unsaponifiables, that I figured would kind of act as a ‘hidden’ superfat (looking back, I have no idea if this is a viable way to deal with a difference in unsaponifiables, but that’s what I did..)
Vegan recipe 2:
78% Shea butter (refined)
22% Coconut oil
5% SF
(Lard is replaced by 97,5% Shea and 2,5% Coconut oil)
Edit: I had a table comparing FA profiles of the 3 recipes, but it didn't work out properly.. I'll try to add it some other way
Results:
In general the soaps were reported to be fairly similar in lather/feel.
One tester reported she thought the vegan soaps were possibly a tad more bubbly, but also a tad more cleansing. I think this could be due to the added coconut oil. I looked up more complete FA profiles and it turns out coconut oil has a lot more short FA’s that aren’t shown in the calculator. I upped the CO to make up for the small amount of myristic acid in lard, but knowing the amount of other FA’s in CO, I now think 2-2,5% was overkill.
Pretty much all testers thought recipe 1 had smaller, denser bubbles, while recipe 2 had more fluffy bubbles. One tester reported feeling like recipe 1 somehow had a bit of an oleic feel, without the slimyness. I personally also found recipe 1 created more soapy mush when left in water for 30mins. I think this could probably be attributed to the unsaponifiables, I had a similar experience when comparing a soap high in unrefined vs refined cocoa butter.
Recipe 1 was a bit off-white, almost yellowish, darker than regular lard soap, I think due to the color of the avocado oil (and partially because of the orange EO I used). It also smelled a bit avocado-y to me, even despite scenting it with an orange and bitter almond EO blend. Recipe 1 was very white, whiter than regular lard soap, but similar to Ladka’s leaf lard soap.
Conclusion:
Looking at the FA profile of a certain recipe and recreating it with other oils is a viable way to get a similar feeling soap. An approximation of the FA profile seems to be good enough. To replace lard, make sure you use refined oil, so the unsaponifiables don’t mess things up.
Thanks @Ladka, @dibbles and @Mobjack Bay to help testing these soaps, if you have anything to add, feel free!
Lard recipe:
80% Lard
20% Coconut oil
5% SF
Vegan recipe 1:
40% Avocado oil (unrefined, refined is hard to find here)
38.4% Cocoa butter (refined)
21.6% Coconut oil
3% SF*
(Lard is replaced by 50% Avocado, 48% Cocoa butter, 2% Coconut oil)
*Searching online I found that lard has 0.8% unsaponifiables, cocoa butter has 0.3%, coconut oil has 0.8-1.5% (I assumed 1% for ease of calculation) and avocado oil has 4-9% unsaponifiables.
Assuming an average of 6% unsaponifiables for avocado oil, I calculated the average amount of unsaponiables of the lard replacement in this recipe as follows: 0.5x6+0.48x0.3+0.02x1%=3.0344%
To correct for unsaponifiable content of Lard, I subtracted 0.8%: 3.0344-0.8=2.2344% unsaponifiables more in the replacement recipe than in Lard itself.
The lard replacement recipe was used at 80% of the total recipe, so 0.8x2.2344=1.78752% more unsaponifiables more in the total vegan recipe than in the lard recipe. Therefore I decided to subtract 2% of Superfat to make up for the unsaponifiables, that I figured would kind of act as a ‘hidden’ superfat (looking back, I have no idea if this is a viable way to deal with a difference in unsaponifiables, but that’s what I did..)
Vegan recipe 2:
78% Shea butter (refined)
22% Coconut oil
5% SF
(Lard is replaced by 97,5% Shea and 2,5% Coconut oil)
Edit: I had a table comparing FA profiles of the 3 recipes, but it didn't work out properly.. I'll try to add it some other way
Results:
In general the soaps were reported to be fairly similar in lather/feel.
One tester reported she thought the vegan soaps were possibly a tad more bubbly, but also a tad more cleansing. I think this could be due to the added coconut oil. I looked up more complete FA profiles and it turns out coconut oil has a lot more short FA’s that aren’t shown in the calculator. I upped the CO to make up for the small amount of myristic acid in lard, but knowing the amount of other FA’s in CO, I now think 2-2,5% was overkill.
Pretty much all testers thought recipe 1 had smaller, denser bubbles, while recipe 2 had more fluffy bubbles. One tester reported feeling like recipe 1 somehow had a bit of an oleic feel, without the slimyness. I personally also found recipe 1 created more soapy mush when left in water for 30mins. I think this could probably be attributed to the unsaponifiables, I had a similar experience when comparing a soap high in unrefined vs refined cocoa butter.
Recipe 1 was a bit off-white, almost yellowish, darker than regular lard soap, I think due to the color of the avocado oil (and partially because of the orange EO I used). It also smelled a bit avocado-y to me, even despite scenting it with an orange and bitter almond EO blend. Recipe 1 was very white, whiter than regular lard soap, but similar to Ladka’s leaf lard soap.
Conclusion:
Looking at the FA profile of a certain recipe and recreating it with other oils is a viable way to get a similar feeling soap. An approximation of the FA profile seems to be good enough. To replace lard, make sure you use refined oil, so the unsaponifiables don’t mess things up.
Thanks @Ladka, @dibbles and @Mobjack Bay to help testing these soaps, if you have anything to add, feel free!
Ladka
Well-Known Member
Oh wow! No, mine is completely white.. I think yours got a bunch of DOS
(ETA: my shea butter was near its expiration date, so I think that must be the reason.. some of mine have a random small spot of DOS, but none are this extreme.. I'll try to take pictures in the morning)
(ETA: my shea butter was near its expiration date, so I think that must be the reason.. some of mine have a random small spot of DOS, but none are this extreme.. I'll try to take pictures in the morning)
Ladka
Well-Known Member
It developed three spots soon after you handed it to me but did not develop any additional spot thereafter. Neither has the smell changed, it is as pleasant as the first day.
Huh weird!! I dug mine up in the basement. On the left is recipe 1, on the right are soaps from recipe 2. The used one (middle front) is really white, while the unused ones turned slightly pinkish and one has a small spot.
mine also still smell ok. The one with the spot (middle of back row) might have a hint of a slightly off smell, but that really just as well might be imagination. It doesn't smell like full-on rancid soap. The EO blend is still lingering, but not overpowering. My spot is on the carved 2 and I see a spot at your 2 as well.. could it be the chopstick I carved with wasn't clean enough? Do you have spots in other places? Hmmm... Curious! Very curious..
mine also still smell ok. The one with the spot (middle of back row) might have a hint of a slightly off smell, but that really just as well might be imagination. It doesn't smell like full-on rancid soap. The EO blend is still lingering, but not overpowering. My spot is on the carved 2 and I see a spot at your 2 as well.. could it be the chopstick I carved with wasn't clean enough? Do you have spots in other places? Hmmm... Curious! Very curious..
Ladka
Well-Known Member
I haven't used your two discs of soap very much since I've got other soaps to use, and test. They are on the shelf in the bathroom so that I carefully follow their development, using them once in a while. I'll sure continue to use lard and tallow in my soaps but am ready to help you build a recipe for a best quality vegetarian soap. And I might like to make a bar or two for my vege friends as well.
To return to the test soap in question: the colour is off-white-yellowish, the three spots are yellow-brownish, they are well spaced and none od them touch the engraved figure 2. The soap no. 1 has no spots and is lovely white. They both retain some of their original scent.
To return to the test soap in question: the colour is off-white-yellowish, the three spots are yellow-brownish, they are well spaced and none od them touch the engraved figure 2. The soap no. 1 has no spots and is lovely white. They both retain some of their original scent.
Ladka
Well-Known Member
P. S.: Forgot to attach the pictures:
I’m still slowly using my test soaps and both look good, with no signs of DOS. They’re on a white background so are lighter than they look in the photo. I’m happy to have the recipes because I think both soaps are quite nice.
I'm stopping by with an update. I'm still using my test soaps. One of them is down to a tiny sliver and there's no sign of DOS on either.
I'm also using one lard soap (@Ladka's home rendered lard) alongside the 2 vegan alternatives. Recipe #2 (shea butter) has 2 small spots that look like DOS but doesn't smell rancid. It looks like the lard soap is now the whitest of the three as the color lightened over time (it was a bit yellowish in the beginning). The shea that started out white turned a bit darker (a slight hint of pink?)
I have a hard time keeping the soaps apart.. I think the shea one lathers a bit more. Adding 2% coconut to make up for myristic in lard really was too much.
Aside from individual differences, I love the way all three soaps lather and longevity is phenomenal. Even the tiny 5mm thick ones I made to send in letters are good for days at the kitchen sink.
I have a hard time keeping the soaps apart.. I think the shea one lathers a bit more. Adding 2% coconut to make up for myristic in lard really was too much.
Aside from individual differences, I love the way all three soaps lather and longevity is phenomenal. Even the tiny 5mm thick ones I made to send in letters are good for days at the kitchen sink.
Ladka
Well-Known Member
Do you mean 20 % or am I missing something?
I must admit this experiment of @szaza 's was great fun. In addition to my testing leaf lard for the first time I also got to know a lovely SMF soaper and her father and we had a lovely trip to two lakes in the mountains.
Soap-wise, I'm still using three of the four types of test soaps (considering two types of lard were used).
- None of the three I still have has DOS. There is some discoloration in one of my lard bars attributable to the FO I added to separate moulds.
- They all retained their fragrance, lessened quite a bit though.
- They lather beautifully and one of Szaza's disc ( would not know which since the carved number has been washed off) bubbles abundantly; it makes me like it like a small child
- One of Szaza's disc is now about 3 mm thin - without breaking or cracking or twisting.
- All four soaps were/are a bit drying (probably too much CO?).
- Additional value: they have good longevity Or is this a minus since it prevents me from makin more soap.
All in all: I'm happy I participate(d) in the experiment.
I'm glad you participated! 
I did 22% coconut because lard has a bit of myristic acid, which shea, cocoa and avocado don't, so I meant 2% extra on top of the 20%
I later found out coconut has a lot of small fatty acids that don't show up in the soap calculators, which contribute a lot to bigger bubbles (more than myristic acid)
I did 22% coconut because lard has a bit of myristic acid, which shea, cocoa and avocado don't, so I meant 2% extra on top of the 20%
I later found out coconut has a lot of small fatty acids that don't show up in the soap calculators, which contribute a lot to bigger bubbles (more than myristic acid)
