dixiedragon
Well-Known Member
I wish somebody would scientifically study this. Is it your recipe? The local water? A combination? Magical hair fairy? I feel like a year is long enough that bad effects would have showed up by now!
Does anybody here promote CP soap as shampoo?
- Thread starter Auxotroph
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I wish somebody would scientifically study this. Is it your recipe? The local water? A combination? Magical hair fairy? I feel like a year is long enough that bad effects would have showed up by now!
Obsidian
Well-Known Member
Idk, took 2 years for damage to show up on me. I do have hard water and was never able to completely get rid of the residue.
I really wanted soap to work for me. Its the only thing that really helped my scabby, sore scalp.
There are people who simply can use lye soap. I was a member of a long hair forum for a few years. Some of the members have used lye soap for 20+ years and have beautiful knee length hair.
A lot use chargrin valley soap but I found it so coconut heavy that I can't even use it on my body. It did seem to have less build up.
My husband never uses shampoo for his hair. What hair he has left he washes with the same soap he is using for his body. His hair is not brittle or dry. I however, only use soap on my hair when I go camping and forget to throw in the shampoo.
This is only 'my' opinion but syndet and combars--commercial cleansers or 'soap' loosely used--are relatively new in terms of washing the body of oily, sweaty dirt and grim. Traditional soap (REAL soap) has been used for thousands of years--as far back as 2800 B.C. in ancient Babylon. Even though commercial 'soap' (loosely speaking) has taken off (bar form 1st and then in liquid form) and has taken over sales of traditional (real) soap, that doesn't make it better suited for skin. IMHO, it does not. Detergents were created as a response to a shortage of fats to make soap (Germany) during WWI. http://www.detergentsandsoaps.com/detergents-history.html "By the year 1953, the sale of detergents in US had surpassed those of soap. During that time, the detergents have all but replaced soap-based products that were used for laundering, dishwashing and household cleaning. Alone or in combination with soaps, the use of detergents started in many of the bars and liquids used for personal cleaning."
Before the invention of detergents, soap was used for laundry, body, etc. This relatively new thing (detergent) is sold as body cleansers AND shampoo but they do such a great job at cleaning oils that they rob me of my natural oils and dry me out. They lather better in various conditions (pH and heavy water) where soap struggles/cannot but I'd rather use soap, thank you.
Not meaning this to be snotty....but....., "If traditional soap were suitable for skin, why did they create detergent bars for cleaning the skin?"
We (this side of 1953) aren't as familiar with traditional soap and the blessing it is to skin unless we make it or have purchased quality real soap. We have nothing to compare it with since we've grown up using syndet / combars. My husband couldn't quit commenting on the difference between my handmade soap and the storebought stuff--he threw all of his storebought soaps away once he used my first soap twice.
My friends, some of them, started making HP soap after receiving soap as gifts from me, not ever wanting to return to drying storebought stuff themselves.
I almost hesitate to state but I have used my shampoo bars for 3 years and those I've gifted them to like them better than shampoo from stores. I make my own hair conditioner with a pH of 5 so I use that after washing as shampoo bars are higher than hair's natural pH (lower even than our skin's pH). Hair's pH must be brought back down to its natural pH or very close to 5 or it leaves hair vulnerable to damage. Hair's cuticles become raised when hair comes into contact with higher pH and they cannot close on their own, thus the conditioner with a pH of 5. My cosmetologist daughter in law, after gifting my son beer shampoo bars for his 24" beard, and after being the only one who touches my hair for over 4 years told me that if she didn't color her hair frequently for her job (uses temporary color) she wouldn't be afraid of my shampoo bars. She's seen my hair over the course of using both shampoo (storebought) and mine (handmade) and couldn't believe my colors aren't being washed out, especially the reds I had her put in a couple of years ago. I had highlights, lowlights, red and chocolate brown. I don't often color my hair but I went for 4 colors when she did it last. If I'm out of my conditioner, I use an ACV/water rinse until I make more. I do love my conditioner. My son (married to the cosmetologist) told me that in using only the beer shampoo bar and my hair conditioner he noticed improvements in the condition of his beard; it was dry and lifeless due to the extreme length.
I know many caution against shampoo bars due to the pH. Oh, one more thing, I have a cousin who has very oily hair and has seen the same hairdresser (she called her) for decades. Her stylest asked her what she was doing differently because her hair looked much better, was growing faster and seemed in better shape. My cousin told her about my gifting her shampoo and she was able to go a few days in between washes when (since we were kids) have had to wash it daily. That's detergents for you--rob our skin (hair) of natural oils so the skin (hair) is in overdrive trying to keep up with production so it gets greasy----->overproduces to keep up with the detergent wiping out the natural oils.
I guess the cat's out of the bag .......... I make and use shampoo bars
I'm glad I'm not the only one and I've not really wanted to state that I make and use them
because I understand why others caution against the use of them. Over the years and many soap gifts, my daughter in law is a good person to go to for hair care. I picked her brain just a few months ago and asked her some very pointed questions. Her answers were spot on with what I had concluded with all the research I've done before making them and continue to read and research. While I make and use them, that doesn't mean others (friends and family) will have good success with them. I had been holding my tongue regarding the making and useage of them......now cat's out of the bag.
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Obsidian
Well-Known Member
@Michele50 @Kiti Williams
So, I'm going to ask if anyone who has been using soap bars is willing to share their recipe?
I'd really like to compare with what recipes I've used. It would be great if I could find something to use when my scalp acts up.
So, I'm going to ask if anyone who has been using soap bars is willing to share their recipe?
I'd really like to compare with what recipes I've used. It would be great if I could find something to use when my scalp acts up.
Zany_in_CO
Saponifier
Whether it's a lye-based bar or liquid shampoo, vs. syndet bar or shampoo, what matters is what works for you. If you have a bar soap that your skin likes, try it on your hair. The key to success, to my mind at least, is knowing how to use a lye-based shampoo.
Be aware that there's an adjustment period due to build up of previous hair products. It's important to rinse thoroughly with increasingly cool water until it's as cold as you can stand it to get all the soap residue out. An ACV rinse helps with that as well as restoring the acid mantel of the scalp.
Here are some helpful links to learn more:
Everything About Shampoo Bars
Why Use A Natural Shampoo Bar?
Shampoo Bar Residue
Herbal Rinses for Shampoo Bars
J R Liggett's FAQ's
OILS FOR HAIR & SCALP
7 OILS THAT PENETRATE THE HAIR & SHAFT
ETHNIC HAIR
Personally, I've been making (15 years) and using (14 years) and selling lye-based bars and liquid shampoo to wholesale customers (10 years) for a long time without any negative feedback at all. I truly feel sorry for those members whose experience has been otherwise. I wish I knew the answer, but I don't.
When I first joined SMF two years ago, discussing this subject was forbidden. I'm forever grateful that it is no longer so. Like Matt (the OP) indicated in his posts, there's widespread interest amongst the soapmaking community in making, using, and selling soap as shampoo. It's helpful to let both sides of the issue to speak up without fear of being criticized for their point of view, based on their knowledge and experience.
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@dixiedragon It matters. I tried one of my bars on my hair in a pinch as I did not have shampoo. Mid-week later, I needed to use some Shea Moisture deep conditioning mask on my hair to combat that dryness. My hair a teeny baby afro then.
Auxotroph
Well-Known Member
Do you know of any hair salons using these kinds of shampoo bars?This is only 'my' opinion but syndet and combars--commercial cleansers or 'soap' loosely used--are relatively new in terms of washing the body of oily, sweaty dirt and grim. Traditional soap (REAL soap) has been used for thousands of years--as far back as 2800 B.C. in ancient Babylon. Even though commercial 'soap' (loosely speaking) has taken off (bar form 1st and then in liquid form) and has taken over sales of traditional (real) soap, that doesn't make it better suited for skin. IMHO, it does not. Detergents were created as a response to a shortage of fats to make soap (Germany) during WWI. http://www.detergentsandsoaps.com/detergents-history.html "By the year 1953, the sale of detergents in US had surpassed those of soap. During that time, the detergents have all but replaced soap-based products that were used for laundering, dishwashing and household cleaning. Alone or in combination with soaps, the use of detergents started in many of the bars and liquids used for personal cleaning."
Before the invention of detergents, soap was used for laundry, body, etc. This relatively new thing (detergent) is sold as body cleansers AND shampoo but they do such a great job at cleaning oils that they rob me of my natural oils and dry me out. They lather better in various conditions (pH and heavy water) where soap struggles/cannot but I'd rather use soap, thank you.
Not meaning this to be snotty....but....., "If traditional soap were suitable for skin, why did they create detergent bars for cleaning the skin?"
We (this side of 1953) aren't as familiar with traditional soap and the blessing it is to skin unless we make it or have purchased quality real soap. We have nothing to compare it with since we've grown up using syndet / combars. My husband couldn't quit commenting on the difference between my handmade soap and the storebought stuff--he threw all of his storebought soaps away once he used my first soap twice.
My friends, some of them, started making HP soap after receiving soap as gifts from me, not ever wanting to return to drying storebought stuff themselves.
I almost hesitate to state but I have used my shampoo bars for 3 years and those I've gifted them to like them better than shampoo from stores. I make my own hair conditioner with a pH of 5 so I use that after washing as shampoo bars are higher than hair's natural pH (lower even than our skin's pH). Hair's pH must be brought back down to its natural pH or very close to 5 or it leaves hair vulnerable to damage. Hair's cuticles become raised when hair comes into contact with higher pH and they cannot close on their own, thus the conditioner with a pH of 5. My cosmetologist daughter in law, after gifting my son beer shampoo bars for his 24" beard, and after being the only one who touches my hair for over 4 years told me that if she didn't color her hair frequently for her job (uses temporary color) she wouldn't be afraid of my shampoo bars. She's seen my hair over the course of using both shampoo (storebought) and mine (handmade) and couldn't believe my colors aren't being washed out, especially the reds I had her put in a couple of years ago. I had highlights, lowlights, red and chocolate brown. I don't often color my hair but I went for 4 colors when she did it last. If I'm out of my conditioner, I use an ACV/water rinse until I make more. I do love my conditioner. My son (married to the cosmetologist) told me that in using only the beer shampoo bar and my hair conditioner he noticed improvements in the condition of his beard; it was dry and lifeless due to the extreme length.
I know many caution against shampoo bars due to the pH. Oh, one more thing, I have a cousin who has very oily hair and has seen the same hairdresser (she called her) for decades. Her stylest asked her what she was doing differently because her hair looked much better, was growing faster and seemed in better shape. My cousin told her about my gifting her shampoo and she was able to go a few days in between washes when (since we were kids) have had to wash it daily. That's detergents for you--rob our skin (hair) of natural oils so the skin (hair) is in overdrive trying to keep up with production so it gets greasy----->overproduces to keep up with the detergent wiping out the natural oils.
I guess the cat's out of the bag .......... I make and use shampoo bars
I'm glad I'm not the only one and I've not really wanted to state that I make and use them
I don't think they would because they are actually more expensive than regular shampoo.
You'd be better off finding something on Etsy.... IMHO other makers add far better ingredients to their bars - Lush doesn't even work to balance the pH of theirs.
I agree. I wanted to like Lush because everybody I know was so thrilled with their products. Then I joined Swift Craft Monkey and I am now in the process of formulating my own syndet shampoo bar which will be ph balanced for hair. From what I have been reading hair has a ph of about 5-7. And I understand that some people can use soap for their hair but what I am seeing is all the extras that they end up having to do in order to rinse off the product and then close the cuticle. Too much work for me lol.
I have a whole house water softener unit, so my water is very pure. I have used limpness paper on it and it shows no visible chemical impurities. The soap is my own recipe, OO, CO, and AO, with tea tree and vit. E added in after trace. I think maybe having good water is the key for a shampoo bar. I would have to go back in my posts to a small FB group to get the actual date I started using my soap. My daughter has my very thick (younger self) hair as well. She has her hair layered so she can pull it into a pony tail without breaking the hair bands.
I'm glad I'm not the only one and I've not really wanted to state that I make and use them
because I understand why others caution against the use of them. Over the years and many soap gifts, my daughter in law is a good person to go to for hair care. I picked her brain just a few months ago and asked her some very pointed questions. Her answers were spot on with what I had concluded with all the research I've done before making them and continue to read and research. While I make and use them, that doesn't mean others (friends and family) will have good success with them. I had been holding my tongue regarding the making and useage of them......now cat's out of the bag.[/QUOTE]I was blasted by a few members here when I first joined. I first test my soaps on my family, they have agreed to let me know how a recipe works out. Then I have a test group who will tell me how the soap works out for them. Only then will I sell/offer my soaps to the public. I started out just making my shampoo bars for my own use. The commercial stuff left me all greasy and dandruffy. 1 use of the shampoo bar got rid of the dandruff, and the greasy feel after washing was gone. Yes, I did have to wash my hair every day for about 2 weeks before my scalp got the message that it didn't need to over supply oils. I can go as long as 4 days between washing in winter.
I make a beard soap that is currently being tested by 16 men at my seasonal work. 3 are so impressed they wanted a full bar. I think shampoo bars, and the soaps we make here, are a finer quality than my grandmother's lard and lye soap.
My shampoo bar recipe is as follows: 15 oz Avocado oil, 15 oz Coconut oil, 18 oz Olive oil. My lye is 6.7 oz dissolved in 14 oz tap water with sea salt added in prior. (I set my water to age after I have added the Sea salt. 1 T to a gallon of water) I mix the oils, add in the lye solution when both are around 135 degrees. I blend to thin trace add in 20 drops of Vit. E oil and 10 drops of Tea Tree oil. mix well, and you can put in the scent of your choice. I add just enough to smell it, but not so much as to knock you over. Pour into molds and let it all get to know itself. I pop them out at approx. 24 hours and set them to age for 4 weeks.
The bar gives a big luscious, tons of creamy lather, so I usually do 4 swipes on my head and then lather up. It yields approx 48 ozs of shampoo, 12 bares worth.
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Auxotroph
Well-Known Member
Are you sure. My salon makes its own shampoo butter and they sell it at 50$ for a small tin.
That sounds like plain old CP soap to me.
Do you clean your body with your 'shampoo' before you wash your hair?
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@Auxotroph
Yes that's what I'm saying - I doubt they would waste $50 shampoo for a standard wash and blow-dry. They usually use their cheapest bulk-buy shampoo for that (my sister is a hairdresser). Have a sneak peek at their shampoo butter would you and see what the ingredients are? I am interested.
Regarding @Kiti Williams CP soap recipe, yes - she is in the camp of 'I use it and it works well' - which answers the question in your opening post. Hers is essentially a soap bar that she uses as shampoo.
Other Shampoo Bars as are sold in Lush are actually a solid shampoo ( not CP soap) made of synthetic detergents.
Yes that's what I'm saying - I doubt they would waste $50 shampoo for a standard wash and blow-dry. They usually use their cheapest bulk-buy shampoo for that (my sister is a hairdresser). Have a sneak peek at their shampoo butter would you and see what the ingredients are? I am interested.
Regarding @Kiti Williams CP soap recipe, yes - she is in the camp of 'I use it and it works well' - which answers the question in your opening post. Hers is essentially a soap bar that she uses as shampoo.
Other Shampoo Bars as are sold in Lush are actually a solid shampoo ( not CP soap) made of synthetic detergents.
Just goes to show that we're all different and resilient in different ways....a few years ago, I decided to do "no poo" (just baking soda and ACV), but the day I started, I forgot to bring those into the shower, so I just did "no nothing"---for 6 months. Just water and rubbing. My hair was different (heavier, shinier) but wasn't bad and didn't smell bad. Went back to commercial shampoo just to try it, and it was fine. Experiment done. My hair is much longer now, strangely wavy/curly with age (was stick-straight until about a year ago...only symptom of menopause so far), and I've been losing hair since the birth of my youngest 10 years ago. Everyone else thinks my hair is thick, but they don't see the bottom of the shower! Yikes! Anyway, point is....with longer hair to damage and less of it everyday, I'm not going to risk it with soap. Some weeks, I don't even use shampoo, just do conditioner only.
Auxotroph
Well-Known Member
@Auxotroph
Yes that's what I'm saying - I doubt they would waste $50 shampoo for a standard wash and blow-dry. They usually use their cheapest bulk-buy shampoo for that (my sister is a hairdresser). Have a sneak peek at their shampoo butter would you and see what the ingredients are? I am interested.
Regarding @Kiti Williams CP soap recipe, yes - she is in the camp of 'I use it and it works well' - which answers the question in your opening post. Hers is essentially a soap bar that she uses as shampoo.
Other Shampoo Bars as are sold in Lush are actually a solid shampoo ( not CP soap) made of synthetic detergents.[/QUOTE]
They would shoot me if I told you the recipe. But it is not sydnet nor a bar. We are just now trying to formulate it so that it is stable in the freezer, that way it can be 100% plastic free in the salon. They don't use cheap bulk shampoo.
It is pretty cutting edge the shampoo butter.
It is still a problem, there is a reason that zero hair salons use cp soap for hair. If is is actually good for your hair, they would be using it and there are formulations that are non synthetic that you can use for hair that works for everybody that won't possibly damage your hair.
Imagine how it would make you feel if you sold or gave somebody a cp soap shampoo bar and it destroyed their hair. I guess maybe people can live with that? I know I for sure couldn't.
Yes that's what I'm saying - I doubt they would waste $50 shampoo for a standard wash and blow-dry. They usually use their cheapest bulk-buy shampoo for that (my sister is a hairdresser). Have a sneak peek at their shampoo butter would you and see what the ingredients are? I am interested.
Regarding @Kiti Williams CP soap recipe, yes - she is in the camp of 'I use it and it works well' - which answers the question in your opening post. Hers is essentially a soap bar that she uses as shampoo.
Other Shampoo Bars as are sold in Lush are actually a solid shampoo ( not CP soap) made of synthetic detergents.[/QUOTE]
They would shoot me if I told you the recipe. But it is not sydnet nor a bar. We are just now trying to formulate it so that it is stable in the freezer, that way it can be 100% plastic free in the salon. They don't use cheap bulk shampoo.
It is pretty cutting edge the shampoo butter.
It is still a problem, there is a reason that zero hair salons use cp soap for hair. If is is actually good for your hair, they would be using it and there are formulations that are non synthetic that you can use for hair that works for everybody that won't possibly damage your hair.
Imagine how it would make you feel if you sold or gave somebody a cp soap shampoo bar and it destroyed their hair. I guess maybe people can live with that? I know I for sure couldn't.
I know - that's why i don't promote the use of CP as a shampoo. But as you say, some people do, and it scares the bejeezuz out of me that the average consumer wanders blindly in to a potential minefield. However, if people are making it and using it themselves and prefer it - well that's their own call.
Auxotroph
Well-Known Member
Also, why spend all that time making cp soap for a shampoo, when you can make a high end shampoo for the same supply cost that is ready to use instantly, is worth 5 times more, and will make your hair better than any cp soap ever will?
Zany_in_CO
Saponifier
@MGM You might be interested in trying this unique product from Elements Bath & Body. It is very gentle and also cleansing using very little. A bit too conditioning for my hair... took forever to rinse clean. I bought some due to the beneficial extracts it contains... thinking I might try to dupe it without all the chemicals.
Gentle 2-in-1 Cleansing Conditioner
@Auxotroph Re Post #40 TIP: To reply to someone's post, look in the lower right corner. Click on the "Reply" button to capture the quote. Type your response below the quote.
HTH (Hope This Helps)
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I don't @Auxotroph but then I'm REALLY picky as to who messes with my hair (LOL). In the past 28 years I've only had 2 people trim, perm or color my hair. About 4 -5 years ago I switched to my daughter in law who is a cosmetologist and a dang GREAT one. About 2 years ago I had her put 4 colors in my waist-length hair and I was amazed how all were so evenly spaced. Took her forever but we did it at her home so we weren't time-limited. Oh, I did also have her cut several inches off the length as well and layer it. That was HUGE for me, I'm always hesitant to get any more than an inch or so removed. Since I don't use a multi-person salon and the only other person I used during 28-30 years was a local hairdresser who owned her own small shop I don't know if there are any around where I live......sorry.
This was too long for one post….I hope there isn’t a rule against breaking it into parts. If so, I am so sorry and won’t do it again.
(Pt 1)
I do not use my shampoo bars that I make via HP for my body, though I could.....it's soap. I realize the biggest problem with 'real' soap (lye + oils and, of course, a liquid to create the lye solution) is that the pH is way too high for hair. Hair, from my exhaustive research, is actually even lower on the pH scale than skin and scalp. It's something like 4.7, if I remember correctly. This is where synthetic detergents work and 'real' soap cannot: soap cannot lather in a low pH because the chemical reaction would break if its pH was to be lowered more than something like 8.5 (or maybe it is a pH of 8). I know because I made my own liquid soap base, diluted it to create my liquid soap and then purposely broke my soap--broke the saponification--and I was left an oily yucky looking thing at floating on the surface of lye water. I dissolved citric acid in water and kept adding it in small amounts and checked the pH and then put the lid on the bottle and gave it a shake to see the bubbles. After bubbles were gone I repeated the process. The bubbles lessen as the pH is lowered until no bubbles and the chemical process is reversed and renders the soap a lye-skin burning mess. I knew that lowering real soap did this but I'm a kid a heart and had to see it for myself just to do it.........it was actually fun to see. Misplaced my notes I made on it but it's still fresh in my mind as far as lower the pH and rob the soap of lather. So, yes, syndet are lower in pH and thus we have liquid shampoo and even syndet shampoo bars that are what most might say are 'real' shampoo and not CP or HP soap. I, for one,--choose not to believe it--have better hair now than I did b/4 and my hair wasn't bad b/4 three years ago when I decided to make solid shampoo for myself.
I cannot use syndet soap on my hands and quite at the age of 15 and went to shampoo for hand washing while at home. All my life, until I made my own soap, I have had issues with my hands. The problem was that my fingers would become so severely dry and crack. Once the cracks became bad enough they'd bleed. One gentle bump or tap of a finger against anything (seems like even air) and the split would widen and lengthen and bleed all over again. I was miserable and it was awfully painful. Using shampoo was only a little better than using bar soap/liquid soap. Again, I am loosely using the word soap when referring to commercial soap only because many mistakingly call it soap; it is not and doesn't fit the FDA's definition of soap. I could avoid bar soap if I were home but not when in school or other places that had bars or the liquid soap.
I'm 58.5 years old now and have been making soap for about 3.5 years. It was only after doing away with all syndet hand soap (like at restaurants, visiting family and friends, camping, etc) that I no longer suffer with cracked and bleeding fingers. It seemed like all of a sudden my hand/finger issues left and never returned. Well, that's not true.....there were 2 times I forgot my soap while visiting our son and his family. Within 3 days my skin began to feel like sandpaper, 2 more days and small fissures in the skin appeared and by the time we were to leave for home (8 or 9 days there) my fingers had already shown to be cracking...almost to their bleeding stage but thankfully hadn't reached that point yet. You better believe I have never forgotten my soap ever again. In fact I have bars tucked away in each of the bathrooms and in my daughter in law's kitchen. They all use liquid soap since it's easier for the kids to dispense and use--easier for them as well. I cannot use the stuff and I now understand why--detergent isn't meant for skin.....or at least not my skin.
Hair is a whole other creature than skin and I fully understand why that is--pH and the cuticle lifting when it's pH is too high. Cuticles are what protects the fibers that make our hair strong. The layers of cuticles keep the bonds below the cuticles strong and unbroken. Perms and hair colors permanently break these bonds and that is, after all, what allows hair to be curled and the curl to stay. The permanent breaking of these bonds enables the color to be deposited inside and below the cuticle layers so that the color doesn't wash out after a few washings. What is shocking to my cosmetologist daughter in law is that my reds were still in my hair after 2 years. From what I understand, the size of a red dye molecule is larger than other color molecules. Because of this, it doesn't penetrate as deeply into the cortex like the other colors can, rendering it more vulnerable to fading. When I had my hair cut and layered in July, my daughter in law looked over my hair and then stated, you really don't have many splits ends at all in 7 months.
The last time it was trimmed was 7 months prior; I never have gotten my hair trimmed as often as suggested, twice to 3 times a year.
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