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Does anybody here promote CP soap as shampoo?

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Michele50

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(Pt 2)

Then she stated how surprised she was that my reds were still there because she knows I use nothing but my lye-based shampoo bars. She knows that because her husband, my oldest son, has a 24" beard (or longer) and uses my shampoo bars and she's seen the improvements to what once was lifeless hair. I also gift him my hair conditioner and warned him, like I really didn't need to given his wife's profession, anyway, I explained the must for lowering the pH via conditioner (or ACV/water rinse) if he chose to use my shampoo bars.


The way I look at it, the pH of hair coloring (pH of 10-11), perms (pH from 8-9.5 BUT all three bonds are broken within the cortex to create a new curly shape and then a somewhat reverse is done to establish new disulfide bonds), & chemical straighteners (also MUST break all three bonds ) are all much more alkaline than my shampoo bars that are made with 100% ACV for water or 50% reduced beer and 50% ACV so generally are around 8.75ish. Those chemicals are on hair for much longer than what it takes for me to wash and rinse my hair. I always lower the cuticle layer of my hair with my conditioner that has a 5 to 5.5 pH. I do other things to prevent normal day-to-day damage:


Water (showering, raining on us, humidity in the air) itself breaks the Hydrogen bonds in hair (though it be temporary) because water chemically is 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom, thereby it can plug itself into the hair's Hydrogen bonds. This is whey you can wrap a curler around wet hair and once dry it stays curled (for a time that is). The same goes for heat, it too is able to break (temporarily) the Disulphide bonds in the hair and is what allows curling irons and straight irons to change (temporarily) hair's shape. This is why I never blow dry my hair, never use heat on it and never ever brush/comb it while it is wet. It's good that I need no fancy hairdos that weaken my hair. I wash it, wrap a soft towel around it briefly to allow it to soak up most the moisture and then let it air dry. I also pour cold water slowly over my head and hair once I've rinsed the conditioner out. It's probably an extra step that isn't necessary but I do all I can to keep my hair healthy.....and that means no detergents that rob not only my skin of its needed natural oils but it does I'm guessing it can do the same with the natural oils that keep hair conditioned. I can't see it not removing natural oils from the hair. Though it might be an unnecessary step to use cold water (which I HATE) at the end, I do it anyway. There's a reason for hair to be rinsed in cold water after coloring or perms. The hot water lifted cuticles (though temporary since it is a Hydrogen bond disruption/breakage). Cold water doesn't lift them and my tub of water is nice warm to almost hottish so that's why I finish with cold water poured upon my heard.....once my hair is returned to a 5-5.5 pH and very warm water is used via soaking my head in my bathwater, I sit and pour cold water over it just to end my routine.

I think more is involved that causes damage when using shampoo bars than just the solid shampoo, but that's my opinion I realize. I think we do much more to hair that damages it and then when shampoo bars are used and we don't understand the bonds within hair and how to protect the cuticles which are our hair's way of protecting the fibers and bonds that bring strength and stretch to our hair and we then can cause further damage to our hair.

About 6-10 months ago I conducted another experiment: I brushed my hair as I usually do after washing it, once it was completely dry. I started with a clean brush--no hair in it--and counted the hairs (yes, one by one) by removing them and keeping track of the number. A bit over 105ish; I did this 3 times/took 2 weeks. I then did the same again but brushed my hair after it dried some but was still damp, 3 times as befor. I always started with a clean brush (NO hair in it). Guess what?! Just as I had expected, with each I counted over 250 hairs. It suffices to say, a wet scalp is like here in the county when the ground is so saturated with rain that we sometimes get for 7-10 days that huge trees just fall over on their sides because the weight of them cannot be held by the over-saturated soil.

Hair is a very complicated thing and going back centuries ago, all manner of things from shaving the head, not washing hair but using cones of perfume (worn 'on' the head), citric acid and then oils, the use of plants (like soapnuts) or in Ancient China--the use of Cedrela plant, or using dry ingredients like cornstarch and arrowroot mixed with EOs, to putting ash from burnt plants and so on and so forth, even ash being mixed with oils, Macassar oil was developed for hair which caused the need for anitmacassar to be invented (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimacassar). All through time something for hair was being used.......and yes, even lye soap....read below….well, the next post.

(Pt 3, final part)

"During the Middle Ages,….In some parts of Europe, though, it was advised that women mix burnt barley bread, salt, and bear fat together and put that on their hair…Some other women liked to make a tea with goat milk or water, and elm bark, willow root, and reed root and use that to wash their hair….Other hair-washing methods included vinegar, rosemary water, nettles, mint, thyme and several other herbs. During the Renaissance period, women in Italy washed their hair with lye soap, and then used bacon fat and licorice to condition their hair. During the 1700s and 1800s.....Most people washed their hair with lye soaps or water, and still went about their days greasing their hair up and pulling it back." https://historythings.com/people-use-shampoo/ Say it ain't so!! Lye soap!???!

Same site mentioned above and continuing: "During the Victorian Era......Washing hair with lye was still common, but a challenger appeared on the scene in the form of the humble egg. Now, about once a month (as was the recommended amount), women would crack eggs over their heads, work the gooey egg up into a lather in their hair, and then rinse it out.

Castille Soap was also a popular option, as was P&G’s “Ivory Soap”, which was first invented in 1859 by William Procter and James Gamble. “Macassar oil”, an oil made from coconut oil, palm oil, and oil from flowers called “ylang-ylang”, was used as a popular conditioner.

You see, lye soap isn't something new as far as a washing product for hair. And in case anyone is interested in all the reading material I found and read before making and using shampoo here ya go: bars: http://teachersinstitute.yale.edu/nationalcurriculum/units/2011/5/11.05.04.x.html
http://hairmomentum.com/hair-chemistry-101-quick-glance-hydrogen-bonding/
http://www.thehairgalleryuk.com/project/hair-bonds-what-why-and-how/
https://www.exploratorium.edu/exploring/hair/hair_4.html
https://themestizamuse.com/blog/comprehending-hair-bonds

This isn't actually all that I've read but its a good start at what I wanted to learn and in order to not ruin my hair or the hair of family members who ask for my shampoo bars. I had a really good neighbor ask for some and I also give my conditioner to those who receive my solid shampoo. She came back loving the results and asking for some for her sister. Both a bar and conditioner was given to her for her sister. I always give a brief (if anyone can believe I can be brief.....I have a bridge to sell) anyway, I give a warning about the pH of hair and the importance of returning it to it's low pH.

Also, why spend all that time making cp soap for a shampoo, when you can make a high end shampoo for the same supply cost that is ready to use instantly, is worth 5 times more, and will make your hair better than any cp soap ever will?
May I ask, what high-end shampoo are you speaking about that is ready to use instantly after making? Thanks.
 
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dixiedragon

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Also, why spend all that time making cp soap for a shampoo, when you can make a high end shampoo for the same supply cost that is ready to use instantly, is worth 5 times more, and will make your hair better than any cp soap ever will?
What shampoo recipe do you have that's the same supply cost? I haven't done the precise math, but the materials needed for a shampoo bar are substantially more expensive than the ingredients for CP soap. lye, lard, coconut and olive oil are fairly cheap. I think people like the idea of washing their hair with something more natural - and soapers like the idea of selling to that market. I like to charitably assume these soapers who sell soap as shampoo have shorter hair and don't realize what they are doing. also realize that most people aren't doing testing over, say, a year. They use their shampoo bar for a month or two, it seems good, then they start selling.

100% natural shampoo butter.
I am dubious. I know you don't want to give out the recipe - okay. But if it is lye + oils - it's soap.
 
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Auxotroph

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This is the wrong forum for this topic. I is not solid, nor is it soap. Zero lye.

If you want to be initiative and at the top of the game, start making it.

As of right now there are zero recipes online for shampoo butter, that is why the market for it right now is endless.

But CP soap works best for your hair so why stop. I use it sometimes, if I don't have shampoo butter, but my shart hair hates it.
 

Auxotroph

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Just had a quick look online and there is a lot of commercially made shampoo butter but basically zero hand made natural stuff.

I am sorry that I can't give you the formulation.

If you can formulate a freezer stable shampoo butter, you will be likely to make a lot of money

Big opportunitie for people here.
 

Obsidian

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I've never hear of shampoo butter? I assume its a detergent based creamy product?

I don't want your formula, just a basic description of it.
 

Kiti Williams

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That sounds like plain old CP soap to me.

Do you clean your body with your 'shampoo' before you wash your hair?[/QUOTE]

No, I have a body soap for my bod!
 

Auxotroph

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I just saw that. Doesn't look like it has any cleansers, maybe its just a glorified cleansing conditioner.

I'll stick to my commercial shampoo and syndet bars
That is a good description of it. It is complicated.

Conditioner. Don't get me started. Proper hair conditioner is probably likely one of the hardest of all body care products. It is miles out of my league at this stage. The hand made conditioner out there is not real conditioner.

That sounds like plain old CP soap to me.

Do you clean your body with your 'shampoo' before you wash your hair?
No, I have a body soap for my bod![/QUOTE]

What's the difference?
 
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Michele50

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@dixiedragon , you are correct about some wanting to wash their hair with something more natural; but it's not so much, for me anyway, that it is because I'm on the natural (must be n-a-t-u-r-al ingredients) bandwagon. My reason is that my lifetime severe hand issues disappeared without even trying to fix it by using 'real' soap and only 'real' soap on my hands day and night when I washed. Being 58.5 years old that's a long time to suffer from this problem. I then wanted to remove detergent cleaners for my butt-length hair as well. It returns when staying with family who use the liquid syndet handwash stuff. I know I had a terribly long segment above (too long to read) but I was shocked by the results regarding my hands and fingers.

Some assume that commercial shampoos are all formatted for at least the scalp's pH (5.5) and possibly lower (3.67) for hair's pH. This is NOT SO. I found an interesting study: "In this work, we review the current literature about the mode of action of a low-pH shampoo regarding the hair shaft's health and analyze the pH of 123 shampoos of international brands....All shampoo pH values ranged from 3.5 to 9.0." To me, if some commercial shampoo is at a 9 then using my 8.75 pH shampoo is better for two reasons: no detergents in mine and mine has a lower pH than that particular commercial brand. I knew the pH of the hair shaft was lower than the scalp couldn't remember the exact number; in my earlier long post, I put '4.6' but it's even lower than that.

I know shampoo bars are scary, even dangerous, in the eyes of most and their concern for others is what drives the constant warnings not to use or make and gift/sell them. My earlier posted list of sites (and not a complete list) that were read and digested is proof that 'some' people don't just flippantly make a product and use it with their eyes closed to the standard belief that is out there. I guess maybe many do but I've been called 'not normal' by my husband; "weird" was the word actually used and then he stated that it was said as a compliment. I've been called anal also by a federal auditor that audited our business records every other year. I'm aware that I approach most things differently but that just makes me a thorough person. I realize some shudder at the thought of giving solid shampoo to a relative only to have it damage their hair. There are many ways to damage hair (heated hair tools, chemicals, brushing when wet, poor nutrition, vitamin/nutrient deficiencies, etc) and many are part of an everyday routine.

".... and soapers like the idea of selling to that market......"
I do not sell any of my soap, so I probably don't fall under this, but........I do 'give them away.' Given to 1 sister who was already using them and from whom I found out that such a product existed, 1 daughter in law with just past shoulder-length hair, and 1 son with a beard that's 24" long.

"....I like to charitably assume these soapers who sell soap as shampoo have shorter hair......"
I have had long hair pretty well most of my life and when I say long, since it is a relative term, it goes down past my waist to my buttocks. I've actually sat on it and pulled my head; I usually have it pulled up for that reason.

"....also realize that most people aren't doing testing over, say, a year."
I've used my solid shampoo for more than a month or so. I've used mine for each hair washing (2 x a week) and it's been for 2 years (maybe longer). I have not experienced any deterioration, in fact it is less dry during the winter months. I've always had good hair so I cannot say that anything was 'fixed' like my fingers and hands were with using 'natural' soap. My intent was not to "fix" anything but to remove detergent-based cleansers.

"....don't realize what they are doing.... it seems good, then they start selling."
Before making my 1st solid shampoo I researched for several months--yes 'months.' I'm retired so my reading could involve 8-10 hours of reading--love to read and now I have the time to do it. I posted some of those sites in my 'way too long' posts in this thread. I love my hair and don't trust many to even touch it with shears so I'm not wanting to do something that could possibly harm it (lol, it's like my baby).

I also have someone quite knowledgable in the field of hair in my family (cosmetologist) to consult regarding solid shampoo and what it does to the pH of the hair. This, I truly believe is where soaping people have a problem regarding solid shampoo. It is soap (of course) and thus cannot be made suitable for hair's pH (about 4.7). Most handmade soap is between 9-10, my shampoo bars (best I can tell with a digital pH reader) are about 8.75. "Real" soap cannot be brought down to hair or scalp's pH because it's chemically impossible; detergent, however, can be used in a pH of 3.67. It is the detergent that lathers and cleans and that is exactly what I'm wanting to steer clear of--syndets. Soap cannot only NOT lather in a pH of 3.67, soap doesn't exist in that kind of pH as mentioned in-depth earlier in this thread.

I also found that site earlier today and have been spending time looking up all the ingredients listed, in between chores and cooking. I 'assumed' it was only butters and oils with some glycerin with no surfactants/detergents which had been one of many approaches used thousands of years ago: after using a citric juice to cleans hair, oils, and EOs were used to condition the hair. Later I can finish Googling the rest of the ingredients, I found it does have surfactants so it's not what I initially thought it to be.
 
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Auxotroph

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Handmade soap isn't all that natural. It is made using quite a heavy chemical reaction. Well it depends on what you call natural. Even SLS is naturally derived.

Please elaborate on natural.

Handmade soap isn't all that natural. It is made using quite a heavy chemical reaction. Well it depends on what you call natural. Even SLS is naturally derived.

Please elaborate on natural.

By the way, my shampoo butter doesn't have surfactants in it.
 
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Primrose

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Auxotroph I have to admit I have been following this thread and really dont know what your intention is here ... you ask if anyone uses and promotes CP soap as shampoo ... some people do, some people dont. You are giving strong suggestions that syndet shampoo is the only type that should ever be used, and furthermore to that, that your fancy shampoo butter is superior to all, that its the only thing we should be making and selling as shampoo. Yet you wont actually tell us what is in it ... no one needs an actual recipe but if you harp on about how great it is and that everyone should be making it ... logic says that you should at least give some information about what kind of product it is and what type of ingredients go into it.

Unless you are just wanting to sell your product??
 

Auxotroph

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The purpose of the thread is to find out why people sell and give away CP soap as shampoo, when it isn't shampoo at all and is in fact dangerous to hair.

In my shampoo you will find keratin, cocoa, mango, Shea and a host of other good for the hair products.
 

KiwiMoose

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The purpose of the thread is to find out why people sell and give away CP soap as shampoo, when it isn't shampoo at all and is in fact dangerous to hair.

In my shampoo you will find keratin, cocoa, mango, Shea and a host of other good for the hair products.
Oh - so your local salon sells this to customers on your behalf? That's good of them.
Do you have any lathering agents in your shampoo butter? It sounds like it would be too oily/greasy otherwise.
 

Michele50

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Handmade soap isn't all that natural. It is made using quite a heavy chemical reaction. Well it depends on what you call natural. Even SLS is naturally derived.

Please elaborate on natural.
There is no real definition of the word 'natural' and that causes much confusion, even arguments. As a general rule, I don't use that word because of that--it means different things to different people. It has no formal definition for this reason. While the FDA has a definition for 'soap' (https://www.fda.gov/cosmetics/cosmetic-products/frequently-asked-questions-soap) it doesn't have a formal one for what 'nature' is, even asked for public input (https://www.fda.gov/food/food-labeling-nutrition/use-term-natural-food-labeling) and I think that's why many food companies use 'organic' because it has a "defined" meaning. Organic (https://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards/organic-standards) can be regulated but natural is not.

As stated earlier, detergents literally cause the skin on my fingers (within 2 weeks) to dry so severely that it breaks open and bleeds due to the way detergents in hand soap wipe out my natural oils. This lasted for >54 years until I made and used my own soap, there's no use in repeating an already long post (pt 1, pt 2 & pt 3). I was responding to a post where the person used that word. Understanding the person's use, or at least I think I do, I responded. I actually don't believe I used the word 'natural' in my lengthy response as I usually avoid its use for reasons already stated. I told my sister (who uses my HP shampoo bars) that if it wasn't so painful and miserable, I'd go out and buy detergent-based stuff and use it and then take close-up photos of my deeply broken and bleeding fingers to demonstrate 'visually' what detergent does to me.

Respectfully, chemical reactions don't nullify something from being 'natural.' Our bodies are walking natural chemical reactions. We undergo thousands of synthesizing/chemical changes each and every day; I read 37.5 trillion but I have no idea if that's valid, I just know that it's a bunch. Just because something is a heavy chemical reaction doesn't mean it isn't a natural reaction. Granted, the lye we buy today is man-made (https://www.encyclopedia.com/science/academic-and-educational-journals/potassium-hydroxide andhttps://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hydroxide). Old-time soap was made, and is still made by some, by soaking hardwood ash in rainwater and combing it (when ready) to fats to create soap. I actually accomplished this (stated earlier in my pt 1, 2, 3. We burn hardwood to heat our home so 2 winters ago I gave it a try. I did make a very crud pioneer soap that lathered and it only had hardwood ash soaked in water and lard that was cooked in an old stainless steel pot on my gas stove--can't get more natural than that in my book. I'd rather use that for my skin than the detergent-based stuff. There are so many variables where the skin is concerned; what works for some might not work for all. If we cooked on open fires outdoors as centuries ago and spilled some fat from cooking an animal into the ashes and then used a little water to put the fire out we very well might end up with soap. In fact, that's 'kind of' how legend says soap was discovered thousands of years ago.

The purpose of the thread is to find out why people sell and give away CP soap as shampoo, when it isn't shampoo at all and is in fact dangerous to hair.

In my shampoo you will find keratin, cocoa, mango, Shea and a host of other good for the hair products.
You sound like you might be a cosmetologist or dermatologist, are you?? The reason for asking is that both are well-knowledgeable regarding hair and hair-health.
 
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Auxotroph

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Not everything
Oh - so your local salon sells this to customers on your behalf? That's good of them.
Do you have any lathering agents in your shampoo butter? It sounds like it would be too oily/greasy otherwise.
It's their shampoo, I have just been trying to help them formulate a freezer stable version so that they can go completely plastic free.

Shampoo bars synthetic or CP soap must just absolutely be crawling with bacteria.

That is another reason to not make super hard soap. Because if it lasts too long, the bacteria on it just explode.
 

Michele50

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Handmade soap isn't all that natural. It is made using quite a heavy chemical reaction. Well it depends on what you call natural. Even SLS is naturally derived.

Please elaborate on natural.

By the way, my shampoo butter doesn't have surfactants in it.
I did not say your shampoo butter had any surfactants in it. If you go back to the original posts--#s 48, 49, & 54) you'll see it was in response to @KiwiMoose 's link to a product 'shampoo butter' that I had also found in my own search of the topic. It is 'their' product that has surfactants (2) in it. I figured, with the alluding but no general info about your shampoo butter that it was like the ancients used on hair and thus nothing new. New and innovative to us on this side of time but not new when taking into account the centuries of various things used to cleans hair and make it not stinky. Also, these methods (oils/butters) of cleansing hair were in my very lengthy post; I gather you didn't read it (lol, nor did anyone else, hahahaa, too much reading for many).


just saw that. Doesn't look like it has any cleansers, maybe its just a glorified cleansing conditioner.

I'll stick to my commercial shampoo and syndet bars
@Obsidian , it has two:

1-1JPG.JPG
AND
1-1-a.JPG

Here are the ingredients listed on that site:

1-1-c.JPG
To each his/her own; I'll be sticking to my HP shampoo bars and my own conditioner.

Not everything


It's their shampoo, I have just been trying to help them formulate a freezer stable version so that they can go completely plastic free.

Shampoo bars synthetic or CP soap must just absolutely be crawling with bacteria.

That is another reason to not make super hard soap. Because if it lasts too long, the bacteria on it just explode.
Do you realize how long lye soap has been being made and used?? This was somewhat detailed in my lengthy post (pts 1, 2, 3) but I realize some might argue, "Just because something has existed and been used for thousands of years doesn't make it safe or good." You know some people have debater's blood, my eldest son did and still does; he won 1st place at state for his highschool debate team. That not only had never been accomplished by any seniors but had certainly never been done by a 10th-grade student. Looks like you have this blood in you @Auxotroph

If some have done their homework (exhaustive research with sites listed) in regards to solid shampoo and have a real live cosmetologist at the ready to confirm that pH isn't the major point in hair damage--why?? because the pH can easily be returned and lowering of the cuticles accomplished which is what sets up hair to serious damage if not corrected-- then the soap must be a horrible product due to bacteria. You are tooooo funny!!
 
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