Do you understand this safety assessment quantity please?

[JuliaNegusuk]

Soapstars - I've given this some further thought. The info I gave you with the oil weight plus SH weight plus 10% water seems to be the basis for the essential oil percentage maximums indicated in the lists on the FAQ page, and was how I was told to submit my recipes. However, the actual assessment certificate that demonstrates your certified shows percentage of OIL WEIGHT for all ingredients. This means that these percentages are slightly higher because they are of a lower base figure. Eg if I submitted an essential oil weight at 1%, they returned the certificate with a figure of 1.16%. Do you follow what I am trying to say? Look at your certification document. If it is like mine it does make clear that the percentage in this case is oil weight.

Regarding essential oil maximums, I was told 3% was the max, (not of oil weight, the other calculation!) singly or in combination, unless the specific oil has a lower rate, like cinnamon leaf for example. In my assessment certificate 3% actually comes out at 3.5% because of the difference explained above. However, if you have submitted, and been approved at a lower rate, I am not sure you could increase it without going back to the assessor with a request and paying the admin fee.

I seem to recall having to work out all the percentages again in yet another format for the EU database, or was I just halucinating by that stage!

This is sooo complicated. I would wait til you hear back from the assessor. This is something you need from the horses mouth. I think perhaps our US and Oz friends are starting to understand why we brits find this so baffling and ask what appear to be stupid questions!

 

[Soapstars]

Soapstars - I've given this some further thought.

Yes, that is how it has been presented to me too. I do not understand how they are working out the %'s because most of my fragrance oils are the same grams (22.5g) in each recipe, I find this is less than many use but i don't like overpowering scents. However, in the safety assessment docs, it shows each recipe as having a different % of fragrance oils. I can only assume this is because each of my variations have slightly different additions, some have no additions, some have kaolin clay, or honey added for example. So the full quantities in each soap is slightly different and therefore the % are slightly different even with the same weight of oils.

With regard to the Eu database I have recently had an email from them saying they have deleted me from the database as I had not submitted any recipes. I didn't know I had to do that so I just registered as a soap seller. So now I have to re-visit that and see what needs to be done - oh I hope its not a nightmare!

Soapstars - I've given this some further thought. The info I gave you with the oil weight plus SH weight plus 10% water seems to be the basis for the essential oil percentage maximums indicated in the lists on the FAQ page, and was how I was told to submit my recipes. However, the actual assessment certificate that demonstrates your certified shows percentage of OIL WEIGHT for all ingredients. This means that these percentages are slightly higher because they are of a lower base figure. Eg if I submitted an essential oil weight at 1%, they returned the certificate with a figure of 1.16%. Do you follow what I am trying to say? Look at your certification document. If it is like mine it does make clear that the percentage in this case is oil weight.

Regarding essential oil maximums, I was told 3% was the max, (not of oil weight, the other calculation!) singly or in combination, unless the specific oil has a lower rate, like cinnamon leaf for example. In my assessment certificate 3% actually comes out at 3.5% because of the difference explained above. However, if you have submitted, and been approved at a lower rate, I am not sure you could increase it without going back to the assessor with a request and paying the admin fee.

I seem to recall having to work out all the percentages again in yet another format for the EU database, or was I just halucinating by that stage!

This is sooo complicated. I would wait til you hear back from the assessor. This is something you need from the horses mouth. I think perhaps our US and Oz friends are starting to understand why we brits find this so baffling and ask what appear to be stupid questions!

Haha, yes - we can't just make soap here. We have to make a mountain of paperwork at the same time!

 

[JuliaNegusuk]

I have actually got the info in two seperate ways in my certification doc. The first batch is definately oil weight, it says so. Then a few pages further on the recipes are repeated and this time it seems to be based on total ingredients weight, so yes each one is different depending on how many other additional ingredients there are. This was the way I seem to remember I did it on the EU database but I can't remember exactly and I'm too scared to go back and check!

If you are using 22.5 g in 900 g of oils that does sound lower. My max weights are 21g in 600 g of oil, or 3% of oil weight plus SH weight plus 10%water, or about 3.5% of oil weight only, or various different weights worked on the whole ingredients weight!!! Aaaargh!

Yes , we sure can produce paperwork! Don't have time to actually make any soap!

 

[penelopejane]

^^^
JuliaN
So if applying to register a soap in the UK system you are better off asking for max IFRA EO/FO limits so you have room to adjust your EO/ FO amounts without reapplying.

The original question wasn’t dumb it was just not very clear what the question actually was.

 

[JuliaNegusuk]

Soapstars - I would just go by your original quantities in grams. If they were going to change anything they should gave made that clear and would probably have asked you to resubmit so I think you can be confident your ok.

Regarding the database, ooh where do I start to describe the joys that await you. Yes you register as a seller, then you have to record the full, detailed recipe of each soap with all the ingredients in inci names, all the accurate percentages, which is where I think I went for percentages of total ingredients - there are no secrets from the EU, no secret recipes, all info on the database. Next - oh what fun, you have to photograph each soap and the wrapper for each soap including the ingredients list and upload them to accompany each description of each soap - you have 22 of these to do, oh joy, I only had 9.

The cosmetics safety people should have sent you a detailed guide of how to do this including how to answer some of the more obscure questions. Contact them and ask them for the EU portal guidance if you haven't got it. There is at also guidance in the portal itself once you are logged on.

Good luck!

Penelope Jane - yes that's how my mind was working when I went (in most cases) for the maximum limits on EOs. In theory though, even if you reduce your quantity I feel you should really get the recipe officially changed. I know this sounds like overkill, but of course you couldn't tamper with the base recipe like that or you would be potentially fundamentally changing the recipe to one that hadn't been assessed as safe. However, if I did put in 16g instead of 21g EO, whose to know, and I know its within safe limits. Because you don't put quantities in the labelling I don't think you'd be breaking trading standards rules because the safety assessment is for a different purpose. But I think in reality once you have your recipe assessed you can really only duplicate it exactly, officially there is no room for post assessment tweaks of any kind and if your insurer found out that you'd changed the recipe you probably wouldn't be covered. But that is just what I think, I haven't seen it written as a rule, but the nature of the process leads me to that conclusion. It is an exceptionally rigid process.

 

[Soapstars]

Yes, I will have to look into it and upload all the details. Can't wait!

 

[LilyJo]

For what its worth I've just checked our assessments (done by a different assessor) and the max percentage quoted is based on the total recipe not oil weight. The recipes were submitted as fragrances in grams and based on a max of around 3%, they were also returned as a percentage.

I have recipes assessed from three different assessors and they are all in a different format!

 

[earlene]

To exchange emails with one member to another, use the private messaging (now called 'conversations') wherein you can send a private message to each other. No one else will see it but the sender and recipients, and you can include your email address or copies of documents you wish to share privately that way. As far as sharing them publicly in the forum, itself, I'd clarify with the admins/modmin group first. But, perhaps the original sender of the emails to which you refer may have some expectation of privacy; I don't really know how to address the question from a legal or policy standpoint.

Can you exchange e-mails on this forum?

I don't know if you can exchange emails on here though.

 

[Nanditasr]

We all differ; I find high CO soap too harsh, particularly in winter..I tend to sit in the middle with lots of tallow and lard, and just enough higher conditioning oils to offset it.
..and for every type I make, there's somebody who I gift it to who adores it.

Different soaps for different folks!

I too find high CO soap very harsh, and I love the feel of one with palmolein and castor oil. However, when I gifted both to a friend (she is 76 years old and I gave it to her in the colder months), I was most surprised that she loved the 10% SF CO soap and did not care much for the far more conditioning one!

And yes, I am guessing that different soaps are suitable for places with different temperatures and levels of humidity. I am watching to see how different my soaps feel in different seasons, and also how the same recipe will cure when made in the summer/ winter/ monsoon.