Dairy butter LS – unoffensive!

Soapmaking Forum

Help Support Soapmaking Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

ResolvableOwl

Notorious Lyear
Joined
Jan 14, 2021
Messages
2,571
Reaction score
6,980
Location
Germany
First a peek on the perfect match in viscosity:































Now to the stinky details:

At various places, the usage of butter (from cow's milk) for soap has caused the most dramatic descriptions of an obnoxious odour nuisance. I already expressed my surprise about this earlier on. I don't want to warm up that story, yet I won't give up the faith in the validity of my personal experience, just to appease some doctrine that lacks the empirical founding to credibly disprove my own sensual impressions. I went back to the drawing board, made a bit of research, and found an exciting remark in a 1953 dairy encyclopedia, heirloom from my dairy master grandfather):
molkereilexikon_0.jpg molkereilexikon_72.jpg molkereilexikon_518.jpg
There are short-chain (= stinky) fatty acids in milk fat without doubt, and upon adding acid to dairy butter soap, they are liberated and smell obnoxious. BUT the *)footnote describes these (C4:0 = butyric acid, along with C6:0 and C8:0 as volatile („flüchtig”)). What does this mean in practice? Well, there is the Reichert-Meißl test for volatile fatty acids in butter, where these fatty acids are removed via steam distillation for measurement via titration. But that means that steam distillation is also a viable means to remove volatile FAs from soap! As a side remark, the entry also mentions that the amount of volatile FAs is lower in winter, than in summer or when the cows are fed with turnip. Coconut oil is noted to have on average 1/4 of volatile acids.

My stage 1 recipe: 45 g clarified butter, 23 g palm kernel oil, 30 g HO sunflower oil, HP-saponified with 26.5 g KOH to positive clarity test. So far nothing special, except for some 5% lye excess. The result is a bright yellowish, clear gel that, oddly enough, faintly smells like maize/corn (maybe some volatile aroma components that made it over from the cows' food?).

As an unusual second stage, I add 15.8 g citric acid to the soap. It instantly seized/split the soap into a murky whitish-yellow oil layer (holding soaps and free fatty acids) and an aqueous bottom layer (holding potassium citrate, excess citric acid, glycerol, and much of the water). It first smelled like milk gone bad/sour. It took some time until the characteristic stink of butyric acid has become dominant in all its repulsiveness: somewhere between sweaty feet, diapers, and vomit. I burned the hell out of it, kept it at a strong boil for about an hour (window wide open, door closed; you could smell the butyric acid in the whole kitchen for two days after that 🤢).

Ideally, I want this reaction to happen: potassium butyrate (from finished soap) + citric acid → potassium citrate + butyric acid↑
Pure butyric acid boils at 164°C, but is volatile enough to be removed by water vapour already, so if I only let it boil long enough, most of the butyric acid should be removed.

After this acidic step (pH 5), I added another 16.4 g of KOH as the third stage, to neutralise any free acids (citric acid, free long-chain fatty acids that should form soap again), and to get back into alkaline regime. Now I had the problem that I don't know how much butyric acid I have “lost” through boiling. And LS doesn't forgive errors in amount of oils or lye beyond some 1% – except for castor oil! So I added 15.5 g castor oil (a theoretical 5% excess, from which the butyric losses are subtracted). It turned out to work well: clear LS without stringy skin feel, and not zappy.

After letting this settle for two days, I cautiously diluted it, and had that perfect honey-like viscosity after just adding the first 50 mL of water.


Performance: I love this LS! It is so pleasingly syrupy, feels gentle yet cleansing on the skin, and is very bubbly. Gorgeous dense & stable lather when diluted 1:1 and put into a frother. It has a slight smell, but this is just that odd chemical, rubber-like odour like any other LS has, absolutely no hint of butyric acid. To address the issues that others have reported of dairy butter soap making their skin stink – I can confirm that there is a faint butyric smell when I rub my hands in this soap, the lather does smell a tiny bit, but I really have to keep both hands close to the nose and inhale consciously. After rinsing off, not the faintest trace of smell is left (This is in contrast to my LS based on poppy seed oil, that still leaves my hands with a slight poppy smell).

So either I had terrible luck with that very brand of butter, or the acidic distillation method really is suitable to remove the butyric smell from dairy butter soap (or both). This result, however, does by no means justify the technique and all the effort I put in there. Dairy butter is expensive, of arguably inconsistent technical performance (look alone at the spread of saponification values and contenst of PUFAs!), cumbersome to work with, has a questionable eco-balance, and last but not least, it is replaceable by oils that just make more sense in soap. This experiment was purely a proof of concept.



Bottom line: It can well pay off to not resign against seemingly overwhelming opinions, as long as you know science on your side. Stay skeptical. Question authority. Make errors. Know it better.

Edit: It seems that my keyboard has a bad day today.
 
Last edited:
To some people, even a small whiff of butyric acid is strongly vomitous (I know, because I am one of them).

So while I appreciate the scientific experiments, my humble opinion is that if one could measure the odiferous components, the science would confirm that those components are indeed present. You simply experience the smell differently than the majority of folks do. I believe @DeeAnna mentioned that it's not that offensive to her, either. I don't doubt your experience one bit - but I also know the truth of my own.

It's like trying to "prove" that broccoli (cilantro, kimchi) tastes good, and telling anyone who disagrees that they aren't "following the science." This can needlessly offend others whose olfactory and gustatory experiences differs from yours. I know you don't intend to do that.
 
Last edited:
It was even @DeeAnna who quoted a paper showing that these acids are in fact show remarkably little variation of olfactory sensation between individuals (“Odor thresholds and interindividual differences in olfactory acuity among these young, normosmic participants were lower than traditionally thought and reported.”). And as noted initially, I have zero reason to assume that I am particularly insensitive to butyric acid. Plus, if the Reichert-Meißl test wouldn't more or less completely recover the short-chain fatty acids, it would be pointless for a quantitative determination of milk composition.

I don't claim that this batch of soap is absolutely butyrate-free. But I do claim that the equation “dairy milk soap will always smell like vomit” is too simplistic, and that people defending it prove only one thing: their own unwillingness to think beyond their prejudices.
 
That was some lengths you went to! My gosh, you do experiment exponentially, don't you? Your dedication and follow through is remarkable.


It was even @DeeAnna who quoted a paper showing that these acids are in fact show remarkably little variation of olfactory sensation between individuals (“Odor thresholds and interindividual differences in olfactory acuity among these young, normosmic participants were lower than traditionally thought and reported.”). And as noted initially, I have zero reason to assume that I am particularly insensitive to butyric acid. Plus, if the Reichert-Meißl test wouldn't more or less completely recover the short-chain fatty acids, it would be pointless for a quantitative determination of milk composition.

I don't claim that this batch of soap is absolutely butyrate-free. But I do claim that the equation “dairy milk soap will always smell like vomit” is too simplistic, and that people defending it prove only one thing: their own unwillingness to think beyond their prejudices.

OR, not everyone is normosmic (has a normal sense of smell). Having an acute sense of smell or an adverse reaction to certain odors is not necessarily evidence of a prejudice. It can simply be that some odors are so intolerable that withstanding the odor for the length of time necessary to conduct an experiment such as yours, is simply not worth the effort. There are many reasons beyond simple prejudices that affect the sense of smell.

For example, some medications affect the sense of smell, making some things smell differently than they do when that medication is not present in the system. Another example is pregnancy, which can alter what odors are tolerable (and this can and does vary with different people), which is attributed to hormonal changes, therefore hormonal changes or differences between people most probably does affect our responses to certain odors. I would not put a label of 'prejudice' on those types of anomalies.

Then there are people who just normally do not fall within the category of normosmic in the first place. Not many soap makers ever mention that they can identify olive oil in cured soap. A lot of soap makers say that soap with lard in it has no distinctive odor whatsoever. Yet there are people who do detect those things and more, so I assume it is the normosmic soap maker who cannot smell those odors and the hyperosmics are the ones who do. Hyperosmia can be temporary as with pregnancy or the side effect of certain medications or illness, but it can be also be genetically assigned (inherited).

Just another perspective.
 
I actually tried hard to describe that the butyric smell was indeed intolerable during the acid stage. I kept my breath, whisked the boiling soap, and went out of the kitchen no second later than absolutely necessary. A mere day later, without pregnancy, change in medication, corona infection or whatever, the kitchen still smelled stronger like butyric acid than the soap. I can't help myself, but conclude that it is in fact possible to de-odorise dairy milk soap. Hard fact, no prejudice.
I'd love to learn the opinions of people who were so confident that it is impossible to create non-stinky butter soap. This is what I mean by “prejudice”: barricading into one's filter bubble, losing skepticism, discouraging progress, denying perspective changes.

I can't agree more with your “another perspective” punchline! I only wish more people would be self-confident enough to do so as well.
 
It is this statement of yours, particularly the bolded portions:

To address the issues that others have reported of dairy butter soap making their skin stink – I can confirm that there is a faint butyric smell when I rub my hands in this soap, the lather does smell a tiny bit, ...

that confirms for me that the soap is indeed, not actually deodorized.... at least, not sufficiently for me. The faintest whiff of butyric acid (even if just while washing and not later) evokes a vomit response within me. This response would be enough for me not to be able to (or want to) bear using this soap.

Funny enough, I am not bothered by neem oil. However, out of concern for others in my family and friends, I went to great lengths to cover the neem smell with FO, since these other folks have the same reaction to a faint whiff of neem as I do to a faint whiff of butyric acid.

Even a momentary sensation of wanting to barf is undesirable to any of them, and to me.
 
Well, fair enough, when you still don't like the (guessed) 5% of remaining butyric acid, then just don't use it (and better also avoid soap that has milk fat added, by addition of goat's milk, yoghurt, etc. There are more than plenty of soaps out there who don't have any mid-/short chain FAs at all). In fact, my description might have been a bit unfortunate, since the smell isn't as clearly butyric, but more mixed butyric + caprylic + capric (from the PKO that I had added as a canary to see if I could remove longer-chain FAs too). Given the much weaker sensations of the longer FAs, the removal of the butyric acid must have been above average already.

Just consider this: a process that got the first (guessed) 95% out of the batter, could get these last 5% out too. I earnestly toyed with the idea to use sulfuric acid rather than citric acid, since its pKa is lower (it will be much more aggressive in liberating butyric acid and impede its residual water solubility). Any opportunity to distill off the butyric acid (pressurised cook or vacuum) appreciated, even with gas chromatograph to watch when the acid stage is finished. There are possibilities.
 
I can't agree more with your “another perspective” punchline!


Levity intended: I am not now nor have I ever been
a Stand-up Comedienne.

1624294198001.png
Nor do I play one on Television.

Any punchlines are purely co-incidental.
But thank you for recognizing my positive intent.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top