Curious about syndet recipe I found + free resource library

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violets2217

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Nothing. Did you get the password entered from the email link here?
Thanks! I just went back to the link in my email and the password option popped up. I'm on my phone...and I don't remember the password option popping up the first time.

The website is in Dutch for me, as it is in your screenshot. I don't know if or how some people are seeing it in German, but if you are, you might have accidentally set your browser to translate Dutch into German.
It probably is Dutch, I do not speak either language... so I just assumed it was German.... Sorry!
 

Quanta

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It shouldn't kill the lather even if you leave it as done in the original Etsy recipe. (I'm not sure where this idea comes from honestly, I have not yet seen it happen yet in soap or syndets.)
I see it whenever I wash dishes. The dishwashing detergent (Dawn) always lathers less if I'm using it on particularly greasy dishes.
I think that I'm now going to have to make a test bar with the butter in it just to test this. I wasn't originally because I assumed it would have a negative impact on lather, but now I want to see how much of an impact it really has. I still have never seen the Etsy recipe, but my own bars usually have only 1 or 2% coconut oil, just for the slip.
 

Corsara

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I signed up and looked over the recipe, it's essentially the same as HumbleBee and Me's More Mango recipe here: More Mango Sulfate-Free Shampoo Bar - Humblebee & Me
Which I coincidentally made over the weekend. The only difference is HumbleBee (Marie) used a different surfactant (Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate, which you can sub SLSa with) added in a Polyquaternium 7 and reduced the amount of butter. It shouldn't kill the lather even if you leave it as done in the original Etsy recipe. (I'm not sure where this idea comes from honestly, I have not yet seen it happen yet in soap or syndets.) I have not tried the HumbleBee bar yet, I made it on Sunday so I'm testing my patience to wait until Wednesday to try it. I'm really leaning towards less is more these days as I read and learn more about hair and shampoo. Although I did tweak the HumbleBee recipe a bit (I didn't have the Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate so I used SLSa, or Polyquaternium 7 so I used honeyquat, I also used walnut oil instead of a butter, and added in 1% silk amino acids because that is one thing I can tell the difference in all the recipes I have tried), so it's probably closer to the syndet that you linked above.
Thanks for this info! I'm still really trying to tie down a basic recipe to try so I can order a few supplies without getting a bunch of stuff I might not use.

What is the purpose of the Polyquaternium 7 or honeyquat?

And what difference do you see with the silk amino acids?
 

Savonette

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Hi, Good info. I just started making and using shampoo bars.... I bought my recipe from Etsy. I love how my hair looks and feels, but; my scalp has started to itch.... Any idea if any of the (common) surfactants used for shampoo bars are prompt cause itching?
Same here. The only thing this formula has that others I’ve tried don’t is Vitamin E. I have read that’s another common irritant.
 

Savonette

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Yeah, syndet bars can be pretty simple. The main thing is you want more than one or two surfactants so that it will be mild. Three or four seems to be the sweet spot. Then you need something to hold it together and harden it. I put other stuff in mine, too, mostly to make it easier to apply to the hair. I find that it's faster to rub the bar directly on my wet head in the direction of my hair than trying to make leather in my hands and then transfer to my hair. Therefore I need it to be nice and glidy and I have ingredients for that.

I am going to go ahead and make little tester bars to see which ingredient works best as a hardener with this formula. I will make one trial sized bar of each: BTMS 25, BTMS 50, and cetyl alcohol. Usually I use BTMS 25, cetyl alcohol, and stearic acid, plus sodium lactate to help it harden. We're about to find out what happens if I can only pick one! I already know it's not stearic acid because too much of that is a lather killer, too. And we would need a lot of it if it was the only hardener. It also is too draggy and does not glide. I try to keep the percentage low in my bars but it does help in small amounts.

Anyway, I'll update here when I have had a chance to compare them.
I used my younger sister and 5 of her friends as a test group. I learned some good stuff and I didn’t have to make less than 6 oz batches. But eventually those young ladies forgot my agenda and most of them didn’t bother responding unless nagged. THEN I found out my mother shared her samples with her friends and I’m telling you! Mama and her friends are ALWAYS happy to tell you what’s what.

Another note, watch your surfactant blend when mixing in cationics. They don’t all play well together.
 

Quanta

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Another note, watch your surfactant blend when mixing in cationics. They don’t all play well together.
Yes, because they'll separate in a water solution. Not a concern in bars, though, because there is no water solution to separate out of. That's the #1 reason I don't make liquid shampoo - I wouldn't be able to use BTMS in it.
 

Savonette

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Yes, because they'll separate in a water solution. Not a concern in bars, though, because there is no water solution to separate out of. That's the #1 reason I don't make liquid shampoo - I wouldn't be able to use BTMS in it.
Maybe that was it. I thought I’d read about a few ingredients becoming unstable if pH, % used and star alignment weren’t perfect and just moved on...
 

amd

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I bought my recipe from Etsy. I love how my hair looks and feels, but; my scalp has started to itch.... Any idea if any of the (common) surfactants used for shampoo bars are prompt cause itching?
If it's the recipe from DIY Bath and Body (or Body and Bath, never sure which order they have it in), then it is because they have the SCI at an unsafe usage rate (in the 70% if I remember, the max safe usage rate for SCI is 50-55%, depending on where you get it from, I have seen it as low as 35% from some suppliers). The high SCI is causing irritation. I had this problem with this recipe as well, which was one of the (many, so many) reasons I have struck out to trying other formulations to see what's possible and even trying my hand at my own formulations.

What is the purpose of the Polyquaternium 7 or honeyquat?
It's a conditioning humectant (basically), it helps smooth hair and detangles. In wash off products it will still leave a film on hair providing some protection from damage.

And what difference do you see with the silk amino acids?
Exactly what you would expect from silk - adds smoothness and softness. I've played with the same formulations with and without it, and without it the shampoo bars ends up being draggy and leave my hair with that too squeaky clean feeling. I think it adds some shine to my hair as well. My hair tends to be rather dull thanks to a couple decades of coloring my hair with cheap drugstore color (not that there's anything wrong with that, it just doesn't work for my hair type). I've done some playing with DL-Panthenol and the silk, and I narrowed it down to the silk giving the results that I want.
 

Quanta

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The test bars are made and drying now. In a few weeks when I've had a chance to use each one a few times, I'll report back.
Shampoo tests.jpg


OK. The test bars I made were according to the original recipe. All percentages were the same. The only difference is that I switched out the hardener for each one. I used SCI noodles that never really seemed to melt, so there were little noodle pieces all throughout. The grey/purple one was made with BTMS 50, the pink one with BTMS 25, and the cream one with cetyl alcohol. No fragrance or any additives (other than a little mica to tell them apart). Each bar was about 15g. The mold is an ice cube mold from IKEA that I use for test size products of all kinds.

I gave each bar to my parents, and to my husband, and I used it myself. My father and husband gave rather generic, useless feedback ("it's shampoo", they said). My mother was more helpful. She also has a very different hair type than I do. So I will be including her feedback here. She kept comparing these to "the blue one", which she really likes and is currently my standard recipe. It has BTMS 25, coconut oil, cetyl alcohol, and stearic acid.

I used the shampoo by itself without conditioner to see the effects of the conditioning ingredients. I also used it as body wash, which I don't think anyone else did. I used each one at least once.

The first one (grey/purple) had BTMS 50. This one, my mother said didn't feel like it rinsed out well. She also said it didn't lather well. I felt like it lathered almost adequately, but it wasn't an impressive amount. She rubbed it between her hands and transferred the lather to her hair, I rubbed the bar on my wet hair directly. It did glide across my hair reasonably well without feeling draggy. My hair felt squeaky after rinsing and it was hard to brush wet (with a Wet Brush https://www.amazon.com/Wet-Brush-Select-Original-Detangler/dp/B07CWQXQCY/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&). No detangling properties at all, and when my hair dried, there was a lot of static. So, I feel like the conditioning ingredients didn't adsorb onto my hair well enough to do very much. My hair felt dry and dull. Using as body wash, it didn't seem to get my skin as clean as I would like. On the plus side though, I didn't need to slather myself in lotion after my shower, so I guess that's good.

The one with BTMS 25 (pink) was a little better, but still didn't clean very well. Lather still unimpressive. Using this one as body wash still didn't get me feeling clean. The static with this one was still present. Still no detangling. I really am convinced that shampoo washes most of the conditioners down the drain.

The one with cetyl alcohol (cream) was a little better. My mother liked this one best of the three, but she still liked "the blue one" better. I think my static was the worst with this one. She has problems with frizziness and I have problems with static. This didn't help any and she still had to use her anti-frizz spray.

I still have not made the one with cocoa butter. I will do it when I feel up to it.
I also have a bar that is similar to my standard recipe that I used noodles to make. I am going to wash my hair with that one once or twice to compare, to see how much of the difference is due to the noodles, rather than the ingredient selection.
 

Corsara

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View attachment 56678

OK. The test bars I made were according to the original recipe. All percentages were the same. The only difference is that I switched out the hardener for each one. I used SCI noodles that never really seemed to melt, so there were little noodle pieces all throughout. The grey/purple one was made with BTMS 50, the pink one with BTMS 25, and the cream one with cetyl alcohol. No fragrance or any additives (other than a little mica to tell them apart). Each bar was about 15g. The mold is an ice cube mold from IKEA that I use for test size products of all kinds.

I gave each bar to my parents, and to my husband, and I used it myself. My father and husband gave rather generic, useless feedback ("it's shampoo", they said). My mother was more helpful. She also has a very different hair type than I do. So I will be including her feedback here. She kept comparing these to "the blue one", which she really likes and is currently my standard recipe. It has BTMS 25, coconut oil, cetyl alcohol, and stearic acid.

I used the shampoo by itself without conditioner to see the effects of the conditioning ingredients. I also used it as body wash, which I don't think anyone else did. I used each one at least once.

The first one (grey/purple) had BTMS 50. This one, my mother said didn't feel like it rinsed out well. She also said it didn't lather well. I felt like it lathered almost adequately, but it wasn't an impressive amount. She rubbed it between her hands and transferred the lather to her hair, I rubbed the bar on my wet hair directly. It did glide across my hair reasonably well without feeling draggy. My hair felt squeaky after rinsing and it was hard to brush wet (with a Wet Brush https://www.amazon.com/Wet-Brush-Select-Original-Detangler/dp/B07CWQXQCY/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&). No detangling properties at all, and when my hair dried, there was a lot of static. So, I feel like the conditioning ingredients didn't adsorb onto my hair well enough to do very much. My hair felt dry and dull. Using as body wash, it didn't seem to get my skin as clean as I would like. On the plus side though, I didn't need to slather myself in lotion after my shower, so I guess that's good.

The one with BTMS 25 (pink) was a little better, but still didn't clean very well. Lather still unimpressive. Using this one as body wash still didn't get me feeling clean. The static with this one was still present. Still no detangling. I really am convinced that shampoo washes most of the conditioners down the drain.

The one with cetyl alcohol (cream) was a little better. My mother liked this one best of the three, but she still liked "the blue one" better. I think my static was the worst with this one. She has problems with frizziness and I have problems with static. This didn't help any and she still had to use her anti-frizz spray.

I still have not made the one with cocoa butter. I will do it when I feel up to it.
I also have a bar that is similar to my standard recipe that I used noodles to make. I am going to wash my hair with that one once or twice to compare, to see how much of the difference is due to the noodles, rather than the ingredient selection.
Thank you for the update! I'm curious on the difference between these and the noodles in your other recipe.
 

Quanta

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Thank you for the update! I'm curious on the difference between these and the noodles in your other recipe.
The short answer, thus far, is that I hate the noodles and will never buy them again.
 

violets2217

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The short answer, thus far, is that I hate the noodles and will never buy them again.
I hate the noodles too because I can not mold them... but then I made what I call a hybrid bar... I split my sci 50/50 half noodle half powder, and I quite like them. I melt everything in double boiler except FO and preservative and once they cool down enough for the preservative they are still malleable enough to press perfectly! They also dry into a VERY HARD bar after 24 hours. Plus they look cute with the noodles... and I feel like they last longer!?!?!?
 

Quanta

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I hate the noodles too because I can not mold them... but then I made what I call a hybrid bar... I split my sci 50/50 half noodle half powder, and I quite like them. I melt everything in double boiler except FO and preservative and once they cool down enough for the preservative they are still malleable enough to press perfectly! They also dry into a VERY HARD bar after 24 hours. Plus they look cute with the noodles... and I feel like they last longer!?!?!?
I am going to try that to use up the noodles I have. Good thing I only bought one pound.
 

AliOop

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I’ve read that some folks grind their noodles into powder using their coffee grinder. Probably messy as all get-out but maybe worth the one-time hassle so you aren’t stuck with noodles.

ETA: a soaping-dedicated coffee grinder of course... not the one you also use for your actual coffee.🤢
 

Quanta

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I’ve read that some folks grind their noodles into powder using their coffee grinder. Probably messy as all get-out but maybe worth the one-time hassle so you aren’t stuck with noodles.

ETA: a soaping-dedicated coffee grinder of course... not the one you also use for your actual coffee.🤢
I already have some that I ground up with a mortar and pestle. I just haven't gotten around to doing anything with it yet. I figure if I'm going to grind it, I might as well buy the powder and add a little stearic acid, because it's the same thing with less effort. (The noodles are held together with stearic acid).

My only coffee grinder is already dedicated to charcoal. No way I'm putting SCI in it.
 

violets2217

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My only coffee grinder is already dedicated to charcoal. No way I'm putting SCI in it.
SO... stupid question maybe! What to you grind to make you charcoal? I know my Activated charcoal is bamboo. So this is me assuming you make your own homemade Activated charcoal and now I'm intrigued! I should have PM'd you so as not to hijack this thread...SORRY!
 

Quanta

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SO... stupid question maybe! What to you grind to make you charcoal? I know my Activated charcoal is bamboo. So this is me assuming you make your own homemade Activated charcoal and now I'm intrigued! I should have PM'd you so as not to hijack this thread...SORRY!
Oh, it isn't related to soap or shampoo at all. I have a bag of horticultural charcoal chunks (Mosser Lee 2.25 Qt. Dry Horticultural Organic Charcoal-0810 - The Home Depot) that I grind to a powder, because I needed charcoal powder that is specifically not activated because activated charcoal doesn't burn, and I use mine to make incense. I looked all over the internet and almost no one sells charcoal powder that isn't activated. Those who do, charge an arm and a leg, so I buy the chunks and grind it myself to save money.
I have a canister of activated charcoal if I want to use it in soap, I just never have. I put the activated charcoal in my censer, mixed with diatomaceous earth and it prevents the ashy smell of a used censer but still lets air flow all around the embers.

Sorry to disappoint!

ETA: The coffee grinder I use is a little manual one used for camping, not an electric one. I would never put anything combustible in an electric grinder.
 

Kelluskoils

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I’ve read that some folks grind their noodles into powder using their coffee grinder. Probably messy as all get-out but maybe worth the one-time hassle so you aren’t stuck with noodles.

ETA: a soaping-dedicated coffee grinder of course... not the one you also use for your actual coffee.🤢
Hey! I recently bought a coffee grinder to grind my noodles. So much better than the pastel and mortar and a lot less time consuming
 

Quanta

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I also have a bar that is similar to my standard recipe that I used noodles to make. I am going to wash my hair with that one once or twice to compare, to see how much of the difference is due to the noodles, rather than the ingredient selection.
I used this bar to wash my hair. It did have better lather. However, the noodles kept falling out and I could feel loose noodles in my hair. This was the first experimental bar I made with the noodles instead of powder, and I think maybe I did not melt it enough. The one bar I made where the noodles melted sufficiently to incorporate into the bar properly, I had to microwave the living daylights out of it to get it do so. That is the bar my husband is currently using and he hasn't complained. But I don't think he'd notice the difference between a really good bar, and a bad one.
 

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OK. The test bars I made were according to the original recipe.
Refresh my memory - this is the recipe from the dutch lady? I'm trying to remember what she was using for hardener, but I've been down a few rabbit holes the last few weeks and was supposed to be in Albuquerque but seem to be in Cheyboygan. :p

Reporting in on my Modified More Mango bars... after using for 2 weeks, I'm really happy with my hair. I've had no fading from my salon color - my hair dresser and I were concerned with the color used on my stubborn gray streaks, but so far even that is holding well. My bar and my husband's bar are both holding up through drop testing :) so this is already putting them in the lead of any other shampoo bar we've used. My husband is really happy with how his hair is behaving and has already placed a replacement order, lol. I do want to order (and will, I just haven't got to it yet) C14-16 to see if it makes a difference, and expand my surfactant knowledge/experience. The larger batch bars that I had to add a bunch of water to are dried out now but still holding together very well despite some cracking on their surface. They've been dropped tested and handled excessively while I was playing with packaging options (wrapping, and trying different label and band sizes). I'll be doing a mail test later this week when I send one to my cousin to try out.

I'm debating starting a conditioner bar thread (one of the rabbit holes I've been down), but for the moment I'll just jot it down here.
I've never used a conditioner bar before, so I'm not entirely sure what to look for in a good performing bar, so my comments are completely based on only using this one bar. I took the recipe from the Dutch Lady (found in this post) and made a few tweaks. Off the top of my head:
I replaced the coconut oil with babassu - I have a raw coconut oil sensitivity, I'm fine with it in soap, lotions but just straight CO will turn my skin instantly bright red and itchy, I wasn't sure how I would react to it mixed with other ingredients in a conditioner bar so I decided to play it safe.
Instead of Argan oil I used sunflower oil - I didn't want to use my precious argan in something I might not like, so I chose a light liquid oil that absorbs quickly.
I did take out about 1-2% of the liquid oil and replace that with broccoli seed oil - it's a natural alternative to silicones (if I remember right, if not, well then I guess I added it by mistake!)
Oh, and then the big one, I didn't have cetearyl alcohol, so I used a 70/30 blend of cetyl alcohol and stearic acid.

My husband and I have been using this for a few days now - I've used it twice, he's used it 3 times, I think. I broke the bar almost perfectly in half when I unmolded it (it was mostly frozen), so we're able to both try it out. He likes it, which I found interesting as he told me that he doesn't use conditioner. He really uses a lot, he says he rubs it around until his hands look like they're covered in lotion. I'm a bit more conservative, I just use enough to feel a light covering on my hair. He really likes it so far, his hair is prone to being oily and this seems to not make him more oily. I like my hair the day after washing, but on skip day I wasn't as big of a fan. My hair didn't look greasy, but it felt a bit more oily and looked flat/weighed down. We're going to keep playing with this one, and more than likely I will be messing with the recipe again, I'm not a fan of how easily the bar melted just carrying it from the soap dungeon to the shower. Likely this bar wouldn't survive a summer in my house (no air conditioning). I may try a butter with a bit higher melting point instead of the babassu, or a mix of the two.
 

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