Crumbling soap help pls and thx

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techiemeka

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Hi
I've been making CP soap for several years now.
Decided to try swirls and have had some success.

Sunday I did a 7.9# pour (new recipe):

10% castor
10% cocoa butter
80% olive oil (pomace)
107gm citric acid (cleating agent)
455gm lye + 56gm lye to offset citric acid neutralization (5% SF)
1360gm h20 (38%)
7tsp sugar for bubbles
6tsp sodium lactate
Divided into 3rds and added one of the following to one of the 3rds:
1tsp titanium dioxide
2tsp pink clay
1tsp iron oxide red
Soaped at about 110'F

Ordinarily I do a steep water discount due to high olive oil (when not swirling). This time wanted slow moving trace so had higher water % but added sodium lactate to help harden slab.

Great slow trace, great colours and swirl, good gel all over - everything looks great until I cut into logs at 24hrs post gel - major crumbling.

It's now 48hrs and still crumbly.
I understand SL can cause crumbly soap in high amounts but what I read was usage rates of 1tsp/# of oils and I only used 6tsp in 7.9#.
Could it be too early to cut? ( I always cut at 24hrs with non swirled, high water discount with no troubles)
Too much SL?

Thanks for any insights offered.
 

Susie

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My math abilities are the equivalent of a gnat's. Could you be so kind as to post the oil weights so we can start troubleshooting for you?
 

Susie

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Brambleberry says the proper amount of SL is 0.5%. If they mean 0.5% of oil weight, then you should have used no more than 17.9 g (or 3.6 tsp). If they mean of total weight, then you should use no more than 27.5 g (5.5 tsp, which is close enough to your 6 in my mind, at any rate).

The only other possibility could be the citric acid and correction amount of NaOH. It requires math, and it is 1:19 am here, so I am going to post what DeeAnna said about citric acid as a chelator, and the amount of NaOH and let you do the math, as I am so not going to guess at it.

"If you use citric acid in the sense of its being a chelator and not a neutralizer, then add the extra lye needed for the citric acid to react with --
10 g citric acid neutralizes 6.24 g NaOH.
10 g citric acid neutralizes 8.42 g KOH."

Soapee says the rest of your recipe is fine. I don't use those colorants, so I am no help there.
 

penelopejane

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Soapee says the rest of your recipe is fine. I don't use those colorants, so I am no help there.
I use Clay at that rate - 1 tsp per kg of oil - with no problems.

I only use 10 g of citric acid per kg of oil though so your rate is pretty high compared to me.
 
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DeeAnna

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New recipe that's high in olive oil -- have you thought the recipe itself may be a reason for the crumbly soap? In my experience, olive oil soap and tallow soap are the ones that have become unusually brittle for me. If the soap is not cutting cleanly, try warming the soap in your oven at about 150 F (65 C) for 1/2 to 1 hour and try cutting it while the soap is warm and hopefully more pliable. If it is still brittle, warm it another 1/2 hour and try again. If you make this recipe again, try cutting sooner. See http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=60750

Your superfat is more like 8% since you didn't add sufficient extra NaOH to fully react with the citric acid.
 

Dahila

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strange I made a soap with 80% oil 5 castor and 15 CO it was not crumbly , the amount of SL is a bit too high and it can cause it crumbly soap too, colors are ok, clay should not influence. The water is really high even for swirls. I use 35 for 3-4 colors, and there is a lot of time, High OO soaps take a long time till trace
 

Susie

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See, I missed an obvious possibility because I don't like high OO soaps, so I never make high OO soaps.
 

Obsidian

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is it hard and dry crumbling or soft and sticky crumbling? Hard and dry means it was cut too late, soft and crumbly is cut too soon. Best advice I can give, make small batches of new recipes until you see how they behave.
 

techiemeka

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New recipe that's high in olive oil -- have you thought the recipe itself may be a reason for the crumbly soap? In my experience, olive oil soap and tallow soap are the ones that have become unusually brittle for me. If the soap is not cutting cleanly, try warming the soap in your oven at about 150 F (65 C) for 1/2 to 1 hour and try cutting it while the soap is warm and hopefully more pliable. If it is still brittle, warm it another 1/2 hour and try again. If you make this recipe again, try cutting sooner. See http://www.soapmakingforum.com/show...ta cheese as an comparison, but still softer.
 

techiemeka

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is it hard and dry crumbling or soft and sticky crumbling? Hard and dry means it was cut too late, soft and crumbly is cut too soon. Best advice I can give, make small batches of new recipes until you see how they behave.

Thanks
It's soft and crumbly - I think I cut too early despite the bar seeming hard enough.
 

techiemeka

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strange I made a soap with 80% oil 5 castor and 15 CO it was not crumbly , the amount of SL is a bit too high and it can cause it crumbly soap too, colors are ok, clay should not influence. The water is really high even for swirls. I use 35 for 3-4 colors, and there is a lot of time, High OO soaps take a long time till trace

Thanks! I've never had a problem with high OO either.
 

techiemeka

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strange I made a soap with 80% oil 5 castor and 15 CO it was not crumbly , the amount of SL is a bit too high and it can cause it crumbly soap too, colors are ok, clay should not influence. The water is really high even for swirls. I use 35 for 3-4 colors, and there is a lot of time, High OO soaps take a long time till trace

Thank . I usually soap with 75% OO and never have issues with crumbly soap either.
 

Dahila

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Honestly it took like four days till I could get it out of individual molds, but now it is hard and really mild:))
 

techiemeka

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How is your soap going? Is it setting up a bit better now?

Out of interest did you CPOP it?

Hi. Thanks for asking. It seems harder tho haven't tried cutting again just yet. A batch I made last month took a week or more until I felt safe cutting despite the SL addition.
And yes, I did CPOP, just until I was sure it would gel.
 

chellmarie

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That looks fantastic! I'm a newbie and I'm impressed with how nice the new batch turned out- great job!
 

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