CP OR HP for Aleppo Soap?

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TheStat

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After watching the soapmakers make the soap, how do they keep a liquid consistency of the soap after boiling?
 

shunt2011

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I did mine CP as I don't care for HP. Mine is 14 months old now. It's okay but not a favorite.
 

kc1ble

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After watching the soapmakers make the soap, how do they keep a liquid consistency of the soap after boiling?
I'm certainly not an expert, but I believe they use potash instead of sodium hydroxide and in fact boil the soap for days before pouring.
 

DeeAnna

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The historical way to make aleppo is a boiled process -- quite different than what we call HP or CP. The lye they would have used would have been a mixed potassium and sodium alkali solution. It would have been made from the ashes of seacoast plants. And yes the soap might have been boiled for some days before it was ready to pour. I don't know how real aleppo soap makers make their soap in modern times. From the video or two I've seen, it's still probably a modern version of the boiled process, since that is how most modern large-scale soap makers generally make their soap. They very likely use modern high-purity alkali -- whether sodium, potassium, or a mix of both, I don't know.
 
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TheStat

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Is there a difference in quality of using cp versus hp?
 

topofmurrayhill

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Which process is better for aleppo soap?
There isn't an inherent difference in quality between the CP and HP approaches. CP will look prettiest, but is the furthest removed from authenticity.

There is a lot of speculation about how Aleppo soap is traditionally made. Maybe the biggest question is whether it's a boiled, salted-out soap or actually some type of hot process where the whole contents of the pot is poured as soap. My experience in researching it is that information is scanty and contradictory. I read what I could and I studied photos of what appeared to be traditional production.

I think there is a good possibility that this is more of a hot process soap. I see it being made in old Arab-style structures with vaulted ceilings, which probably just have one floor and no basement. The pots appear to be sunk into the ground, with no provision to drain from the bottom. As you've noticed, the pour is very liquid and appears to be steaming. Some but not all examples show a good amount of shrinkage.

Ultimately I had to make some decisions without really knowing how it's done. I did it hot process, with a small lye excess calculated. For fluidity I used a very high water amount and some sodium lactate. The final thing to make it more pourable was to wait until the OO was about done before adding the laurel berry oil. Immediately after incorporating the laurel oil, I poured everything into a mold to finish saponifying.
 

TeresaT

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Let's kidnap a Syrian and hold him/her hostage until s/he gives us the secret. We can play "Henry 8th" 24/7 to make them talk:

I'm Henry the eighth, I am
Henry the eighth, I am, I am
I got married to the widow next door
She's been married seven times before

And every one was an Henry (Henry)
She wouldn't have a Willy or a Sam (No Sam)
I'm her eighth old man, I'm Henry
Henry the eighth I am

Second verse? Same as the first!

I'm Henry the eighth, I am
Henry the eighth, I am, I am
I got married to the widow next door
She's been married seven times before

And every one was an Henry (Henry)
She wouldn't have a Willy or a Sam (No Sam)
I'm her eighth old man, I'm Henry
Henry the eighth I am

I'm Henry the eighth, I am
Henry the eighth, I am, I am
I got married to the widow next door
She's been married seven times before

And every one was an Henry (Henry)
She wouldn't have a Willy or a Sam (No Sam)
I'm her eighth old man, I'm Henry
Henry the eighth I am

H-E-N-R-Y
Henry (Henry)
Henry (Henry)
Henry the eighth I am, I am
Henry the eighth I am
Yeah!
 

TheStat

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There isn't an inherent difference in quality between the CP and HP approaches. CP will look prettiest, but is the furthest removed from authenticity.

There is a lot of speculation about how Aleppo soap is traditionally made. Maybe the biggest question is whether it's a boiled, salted-out soap or actually some type of hot process where the whole contents of the pot is poured as soap. My experience in researching it is that information is scanty and contradictory. I read what I could and I studied photos of what appeared to be traditional production.

I think there is a good possibility that this is more of a hot process soap. I see it being made in old Arab-style structures with vaulted ceilings, which probably just have one floor and no basement. The pots appear to be sunk into the ground, with no provision to drain from the bottom. As you've noticed, the pour is very liquid and appears to be steaming. Some but not all examples show a good amount of shrinkage.

Ultimately I had to make some decisions without really knowing how it's done. I did it hot process, with a small lye excess calculated. For fluidity I used a very high water amount and some sodium lactate. The final thing to make it more pourable was to wait until the OO was about done before adding the laurel berry oil. Immediately after incorporating the laurel oil, I poured everything into a mold to finish saponifying.
How did it end up?
 

topofmurrayhill

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Nice, hopefully my batch turns out right using the recipe above.
Which recipe, mine? Just don't assume I know how to make it. We could be better off singing Henry the Eighth. You can do it the same way or try whatever variation you want and report back. For one thing I don't know what makes the traditional product green. You would think it could be laurel and maybe pomace oil, but those don't actually stay green for very long in contact with lye. I saponified everything completely, but I wonder if there's supposed to be a laurel oil superfat.
 

TheStat

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Which recipe, mine? Just don't assume I know how to make it. We could be better off singing Henry the Eighth. You can do it the same way or try whatever variation you want and report back. For one thing I don't know what makes the traditional product green. You would think it could be laurel and maybe pomace oil, but those don't actually stay green for very long in contact with lye. I saponified everything completely, but I wonder if there's supposed to be a laurel oil superfat.
I was referring to the recipe in this thread: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showt...t=38938&page=4
Hopefully it works out. Yeah in the video of the soapmakers making the soap, the olive oil they use looks really green, which I dont know where they obtain it from.
 
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topofmurrayhill

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One of the fundamental questions about Aleppo soap is the process by which it's made. We have enough information to eliminate the cold process, which leaves two possibilities. One is that it's made with the hot process, in which the ingredients would be cooked and the entire contents of the pot poured as soap. The other is that it's a boiled process, in which soap curd is separated from the liquid solution using salt.

There are some sources that suggest castile from Aleppo is a hot process soap. While I haven't found anything that seems to definitively answer the question, I have tended to believe that it's HP. One reason is that the traditional factories we see in photos and videos look like they are set up for a simple process. I also think the video of soap being poured onto the floor as a fluid paste doesn't resemble soap curd from a boiled process.

One thing I overlooked when trying to research Aleppo soap is searching for information on the production of Nablusi soap. This is a castile of the Levant, made in what is currently the Occupied West Bank. They use the same process as Aleppo but without the laurel berry oil.

I think this clue is more definitive than anything I've seen to indicate that Aleppo and Nablusi are HP soaps:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XQIxCs7QkU[/ame]
 

TheStat

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One of the fundamental questions about Aleppo soap is the process by which it's made. We have enough information to eliminate the cold process, which leaves two possibilities. One is that it's made with the hot process, in which the ingredients would be cooked and the entire contents of the pot poured as soap. The other is that it's a boiled process, in which soap curd is separated from the liquid solution using salt.

There are some sources that suggest castile from Aleppo is a hot process soap. While I haven't found anything that seems to definitively answer the question, I have tended to believe that it's HP. One reason is that the traditional factories we see in photos and videos look like they are set up for a simple process. I also think the video of soap being poured onto the floor as a fluid paste doesn't resemble soap curd from a boiled process.

One thing I overlooked when trying to research Aleppo soap is searching for information on the production of Nablusi soap. This is a castile of the Levant, made in what is currently the Occupied West Bank. They use the same process as Aleppo but without the laurel berry oil.

I think this clue is more definitive than anything I've seen to indicate that Aleppo and Nablusi are HP soaps:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XQIxCs7QkU
How do they maintain a liquid consistency? It appears they add a lot of fresh and salt water which keeps the soap a liquid, but wouldn't the water and soap separate or no?
 

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