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Tara_H

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Do you eat ice cream?
I'm afraid I don't actually! (Very sadly 😭 ) I'm allergic to cows' milk which means all sort of good things (cheese, chocolate, ice cream) are off the table by default. (I.e. without a fair bit of effort and money to find an alternate.)

But when I was researching polysorbate 80 for using in bath bombs, I was reassured to discover it's often a food ingredient too :)
 

Tara_H

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Well now, I am so sorry you cannot eat traditional ice cream, but not even that made without cow's milk?
Yes, I sometimes make my own, and there are a couple of dairy-free brands which can be found sometimes, but the options here are pretty limited so generally it's not something that I eat 🤷‍♀️
 

beckster51

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I skipped straight to the part about underreported deaths. Their allegation that everyone who dies within 3 days of receiving a vaccine is ridiculous. Think about it. That's like saying everyone who took an aspirin within the last 3 days died because they took an aspirin. Any algorithm based on correlation rather than causation is trash. I actually have an open mind about what the side effects of vaccines are, even though I am pro vaccine. I know that nothing is absolute. But again, correlation does not equal causation. That is huge leap in thinking, and those that understand epidemiology and medical research know that.
 

KiwiMoose

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I won't be rushing into having a vaccine, but I *may* get one further down the line. Fortunately for NZers, the issue is not as pressing because we can count on one hand how many active cases there are ( and they are in managed isolation).
My opinion about the vaccine would no doubt be vastly different were I living in a region that was badly affected by COVID-19.
 

linne1gi

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beckster51

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Sorry, @AliOop if I sounded snarky. I don't mean to be. It's just that all the misinformation really drives me to distraction. I really did not find anything in their assertions that would cause alarm. A lot of misinformation about many things comes from correlation rather than causation, and that is generally magical thinking or such a shortage of data that it is impossible to come to a conclusion. I'll try to be more measured in my responses in future, even if I am pulling my hair out as I do so! LOL
 

AliOop

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Sorry, @AliOop if I sounded snarky. I don't mean to be. It's just that all the misinformation really drives me to distraction. I really did not find anything in their assertions that would cause alarm. A lot of misinformation about many things comes from correlation rather than causation, and that is generally magical thinking or such a shortage of data that it is impossible to come to a conclusion. I'll try to be more measured in my responses in future, even if I am pulling my hair out as I do so! LOL
I didn't take as snarky, so no worries. Besides, I like open discussion and like hearing opposing views. Having a discussion with a variety of viewpoints is something our society seems to have forgotten how to do, so I appreciate that we can do that here.

As an attorney, I was most surprised by the conversational tone in which is was written, which is not typical for an adversarial document like a request for injunction. I can agree with some of the things in the lawsuit (don't suppress free discussion in the name of public safety - I can think for myself)... while other contentions make me roll my eyes.

For instance, I wasn't as bothered by the correlation v. causation issue, because in the law, a high enough correlation can be grounds to find causation. An example of this is smoking: it is the high correlation with lung cancer that has lead them to say "smoking causes cancer" - not any scientific test proving it, as that would require unethical human testing. But I digress....

But I was bothered that the 45k death number is a statistical extrapolation (aka ASSUMPTION) based on some smaller numbers, and what they believe those smaller numbers represent. From a legal standpoint, that is a VERY weak argument. I understand that they are making that argument in order to gain access to the actual records. And I absolutely agree that those records should be public. Hiding them inside a separate and non-public reporting system is wrong from every perspective. Make the records public, and deal with what's in there. Not too much to ask. But I don't like hyperbole because it actually weakens any valid arguments, IMO.
 
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beckster51

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I think this case is extraordinarily weak, and we are in the middle of this pandemic, so I think it is premature to come to any conclusions about vaccines and causation. If the algorithm person is the basis for the suit, then I give them a big raspberry. Even if they get access to all records to date, they will not prove causation through use of an algorithm. Scientists were able to prove that smoking causes severe dysplasia in lung tissue, so they were able to demonstrate harm. It is nice to be able to have discussions that are civil, but this type of suit allows people who are antivaxxers to point to what they think is legitimacy for their beliefs, even though it is not, at least not yet. The science will come out in due time. Thanks for being tolerant of my response!
 

rdc1978

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Sorry, @AliOop if I sounded snarky. I don't mean to be. It's just that all the misinformation really drives me to distraction. I really did not find anything in their assertions that would cause alarm. A lot of misinformation about many things comes from correlation rather than causation, and that is generally magical thinking or such a shortage of data that it is impossible to come to a conclusion. I'll try to be more measured in my responses in future, even if I am pulling my hair out as I do so! LOL
I understand how you feel completely. I don't get into arguments with anyone and I'm grateful to live in an area where people always took covid 19 seriously.

I do appreciate @AliOop highlighting this case and while frustrating I think its good that it's filed so that there is a chance for transparency and a way to address these accusations in a recognized legal forum designed to weigh facts and data.

Perhaps the response from the various manufacturers will make people feel a little more confident.
 

earlene

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A lawsuit has been filed in the US, seeking a preliminary injunction to halt the use of the C19 vaccines due to 45,000 deaths in the US being attributed to the shots.

No matter where you land on this issue, the allegations make for interesting reading:
https://renz-law.com/45k-whistleblower-suit
Another point of view about the filers of this lawsuit, "America's Frontline Doctors:


The founder of "America's Frontline Doctors" on July 16, 2020, is Simone Melissa Gold, an anti-vaccine activist, physician, attorney, and author. (reference)

 

AliOop

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Yup, I am all for transparency. And having been involved in a lot of trial work myself, I don't draw conclusions till I've seen all the evidence. Anyone can say anything, and saying it, doesn't make it so. I do hope the issue is fully and fairly vetted in the courts, so that all of us can have confidence in whatever the science proves to be true.
 

Nona'sFarm

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So this is a plug for vaccination. Based on reading and discussions with family members in the medical field, currently our biggest threat are the variants that continue to evolve. Until we reach worldwide herd immunity or better, we should all be vigilant, even after getting fully vaccinated.
I do have concerns about the vaccines, since they were developed so rapidly; but cases are down since people have been able to be vaccinated, at least for now. The quicker herd immunity is reached, the less time there is for a variant to develop that can't be stopped by the current vaccine. We just don't need to lose any more lives to this horrible disease.
So please follow your CDC and health department guidelines. "Better to be safe, than sorry," as grandma used to say.

And finally, hats off to New Zealand! They have done an incredible job at containing and preventing the virus on their shores. I only wish the U.S. had taken it more seriously at the beginning of the pandemic.
 

melinda48

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Sorry, @AliOop if I sounded snarky. I don't mean to be. It's just that all the misinformation really drives me to distraction. I really did not find anything in their assertions that would cause alarm. A lot of misinformation about many things comes from correlation rather than causation, and that is generally magical thinking or such a shortage of data that it is impossible to come to a conclusion. I'll try to be more measured in my responses in future, even if I am pulling my hair out as I do so! LOL
Didn’t think you were “snarky” at all. No offense taken here!

So this is a plug for vaccination. Based on reading and discussions with family members in the medical field, currently our biggest threat are the variants that continue to evolve. Until we reach worldwide herd immunity or better, we should all be vigilant, even after getting fully vaccinated.
I do have concerns about the vaccines, since they were developed so rapidly; but cases are down since people have been able to be vaccinated, at least for now. The quicker herd immunity is reached, the less time there is for a variant to develop that can't be stopped by the current vaccine. We just don't need to lose any more lives to this horrible disease.
So please follow your CDC and health department guidelines. "Better to be safe, than sorry," as grandma used to say.

And finally, hats off to New Zealand! They have done an incredible job at containing and preventing the virus on their shores. I only wish the U.S. had taken it more seriously at the beginning of the pandemic.
And what is the population of New Zealand compared to that of the US? I think we are doing fine considering our numbers. Vaccines are available for free everywhere you turn. Those who want it can easily get it; those who do not want it, won’t take it. Live your life as completely as you can as it is the only one you will get. I, for one, will not spend my time sequestered in my home, much as I love it! Fresh air, sunshine, good food, good friends (and making great soap) make life worth living.
 

lenarenee

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My 2 pennies: The vaccine was NOT created quickly. After the SARS 2003 outbreak, a vaccine went into pre-clinical animal testing, and scientists knew to target the spike protein. When covid -19 showed up, all they had to do was tweak proteins and DNA strands, test to see it was effective, then test to double check safety. It's the same thing for flu vaccines every year; there's a model vaccine to start with which is tweaked to fit the current virus circulating that year.
mRNA vaccine technology has also been around for 15 years or more. It greatly increases the speed at which a vaccine can be produced as well.

2) I don't know how or if this relates to the legal complaint listed above, but have you seen website with the adverse reactions reports of the vaccine? I've read through a dozen pages or so of it. The adverse effects are NOT reported by medical personnel, they're reported by mostly relatives. There's no qualification system for someone to report an adverse effect....it's basically guesses and heresy. People claiming that they 84 year old parent in palliative care with 2 chronic diseases dying days after receiving the vaccine are....useless. Most of them were elderly, compromised patients. There were no medical evaluations or autopsies substantiating any claims. Causes of deaths of the death certificates varied greatly, and many family called them lies. So, if any of those 45,000 supposed vaccine deaths came from the adverse reaction list, I know there's no proof behind it.
 

rdc1978

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This, this right here? These are the conversations we, as a society, need to be having.

And the genesis of it was the lawsuit that @AliOop brought up.

I dont have the time or patience to have these conversations but I'm glad to see the discussions happening.

I know what side I am on, and I do not particularly understand the "other side", but I know that we are all in this together, so the discussion back and forth with both sides giving information can only help. Particularly if there are some things that are open to misunderstanding and can be debunked.

Thank you all.
 

KiwiMoose

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And finally, hats off to New Zealand! They have done an incredible job at containing and preventing the virus on their shores. I only wish the U.S. had taken it more seriously at the beginning of the pandemic.
We are lucky that we are small and self-contained. We don't border any other countries and we have a population of under 5 million, so it is easier for us to manage. I think larger countries/those with higher populations are always going to be hit hardest.
 
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