LOL I’m a pediatric nurse. And you are correct
Coronavirus
- Thread starter LilyJo
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To my knowledge that determination hasn’t been made yet. We don’t have an FDA approval yet. Settle down.
Well, I guess I kinda am. All a parent has to do is sign a waiver. Having worked at a University health center and pediatric center ( all ages of minors) as well as the one of the nurses who had to educate parents about vaccines and waivers and outcomes, etc...as well as having five kids ... I can say all parents have the ability to sign a waiver. But if there is an outbreak , the student will be required to leave. And of course, that makes sense as they haven’t had the vaccine and then of course could get very sick from possible exposure. And this would of course apply to the other non vaccinated population who’ve signed waivers. All acceptable choices with known outcomes. Trying to meet the feelings of all concerned.
I have two grandsons. The oldest is 22 months old. He doesn’t remember a time when it was more than mom and dad working from home, people didn’t wear masks when away from home, there were play dates with other kids, etc. The youngest is not quite 3 months old and doesn’t know much of anything yet, but I so wish I didn’t have to wear a mask when I am with him. I don’t believe the way things are now will be permanent, and children will not ‘grow up in a world without a smile’. I do believe we would get back to ‘normal’ a lot faster if people would just wear a mask.
I agree people should have the right to make their own decisions about their bodies. But when someone makes that decision and contracts the virus they could potentially expose others, especially if they don’t have symptoms and are unaware. When my son was 11 months old and too young to have received the measles vaccine, he did get sick with measles and I have no idea where he was exposed. Someone chose not to vaccinate, went into a public space and spread an airborne virus to anyone else that was there within 2 hours. A vaccine was not yet available to my son as he was too young for it. He was very sick, but his older sister, who was vaccinated, was fine. So until everyone who wants a vaccine is able to get one, I don’t have a problem with those who choose not to get one living with some consequences of that decision.
I hope I am saying this in the way I intend. I’m not trying to be confrontational, but just have a different viewpoint.
fish123
Member
Well it happened, that I am a biologist, from medical dynasty (none of whom are chiropractors or naturopaths or even nurses - all hard core classical doctors). So I have my claims not from facebook.
Continuous(!) avoidance of "germs" DOES result in weakening immune system over time - please learn what IS immune system and how it is working before you call someone stupid or liar. The results of constant germ avoidance will be noticeable in several months - couple of years. There will be strong surge in heavy reactions to seasonal illnesses, previously considered as mild ones - and as no one ever made PCR on those multitudes of "colds" they will find "new" "super-bugs" one after another - not because they emerged from some lab, but just because people lost immunity to some rota-, corona- etc- viruses, they used to contract every, EVERY winter before and just felt slightly tired, because in short period of time mutations accumulated by virus are few and immune system can recognize and respond quickly with more or less compatible antibodies still left from previous infection with similar strain. Longer interval between reinfections -> more mutations accumulated by virus -> "new" (=unknown to immune system) virus. SO please - DO educate yourself not only from mainstream newspapers.
Your example with "surgeons, nurses, firefighters, painters, drywallers, etc" is not correct, as all those people use masks only at work (and previously it was NOT all the time) and after work they contracted LOTS of germs in stores, restaurants, at home from family members who do NOT wear masks at work and bring every single germ back home to "surgeons, nurses, firefighters, painters, drywallers, etc".
I do wear mask from reason stated above(I am not afraid for myself because I had it mid January - just strange loss of smell and taste for a week without any other symptoms), but I am perfectly sure they do not stop all the viruses - they diminish the load, which is good. But somewhere should be the limit. And currently looks like many would just love to wear masks to the end of their lives (folks in this forum too). And THAT I (even having leukemia-patient at home) find to be really, really sick.
And there ultimately IS move to mandatory vaccination - freedom to choose whether to vaccinate children who are going to public schools was taken from people in every single state of US.
wake up - a waiver possibility was waived. Vaccinations ARE mandatory since couple of years. Only medical extemptions are recognized now in most states, and doctors are not willing to give them.
The sad thing is - wearing a mask does "flatten the curve" - just by STRETCHING out infection rates throughout population, because this virus (as most air-born ones) is impossible to control - we ALL have to go through this infection. And that means - wearing the mask will not fasten but slow down "back to normal" - might be even longer just because virus would mutate more over longer time and cause severe symptoms by second infections with changed strain, which otherwise (with short intervals between contracting the virus = less changed strain of virus) would go unnoticed.
And sadly - nothing in the world can change impressions put on a child in the first tree years of life. These first years are mind-molding - literally.
btw. "Spanish flu" was one of regular strains of influenza (real one) after all - H1N1 influenza A - it was recently PCR tested from exhumed bodies. Pretty common strain in those time already, but social and economical situation of that time was a cause of disaster, making the virus so devastating - through peoples weakened immune systems and unsanitary conditions of living in war time.
And now social and economical disaster is being created - under banner of COVID. What would come in next years?
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I'm not going to argue with you. I don't necessarily agree with you that we 'all' have to go through this infection. Even so, flattening the curve will allow hospitals and health care workers to keep up with the cases. That in itself is a huge reason to flatten the curve. If we all do, indeed, have to have the infection I would like to think that those needing care will get it.
Obsidian
Well-Known Member
@paradisi s
Its not required everywhere and thats the reason measles is making a come back in the US.
I personally feel that vaccinations absolutely should be mandatory, for kids and adults.
Its obvious by how this pandemic has spread that people can't figure out how to keep themselves safe. It time for governments to step up and make them.
Its not required everywhere and thats the reason measles is making a come back in the US.
I personally feel that vaccinations absolutely should be mandatory, for kids and adults.
Its obvious by how this pandemic has spread that people can't figure out how to keep themselves safe. It time for governments to step up and make them.
JenBen
Active Member
We are required to vaccinate our children in order to enroll them in school and sometimes in order to enroll them in Summer Camp. (It varies from state to state.) Those who work in healthcare can chime in, but it my understanding that they are required to get a flu vaccine.
Some are suggesting requiring proof of vaccination in order to enter stores, fly on airplanes, and at certain workplaces.
The rise of measles concerns me too. It’s so virulent. Like other highly-infectious diseases, it likely requires multi-faceted attention.
I don’t want to discount the life-saving value of vaccines. I simply believe we should apply the same caution and scrutiny that we do to all pharmaceuticals.
The government does not have the right to make any medical procedure/vaccine ”mandatory.” As you likely know, there are some religions that do not allow for vaccines/medical interference. The Amish and the Mennonite communities do not wear masks -we have to respect that right. I believe we have to be careful to make good choices for ourselves, our families, and others. Be very very careful what you wish for.
That being said, I always wear a mask when I am going to be around others. I do not wear a mask when walking in the fresh air. If I am in a store and see someone coming my way without a mask, I turn and take another route. Social distancing is not difficult; it is s9mething we can all do. If you work I doors all day, you will be wearing a mask-be sure to keep it clean as change it often.
Hang in there folks. We will get through this!
How, exactly?
I agree with @dibbles, wearing a mask will help flatten the curve. The virus doesn’t go away, it’s still there, but it does help to keep hospitals, doctors and nurses from being totally overwhelmed. Along with mortuaries. Do you realize they are loading bodies into refrigerated trucks because there’s no place big enough to contain them? The hospital in my area is overwhelmed, many are overwhelmed. And @Obsidian, I totally agree with you, the government needs to step up and keep safe the idiots out there.
I figure, what can it hurt? My Husband does have asthma, so he needs to "vent" a few times. This is done with the mask on, but pulled away from the neck a bit. It lets in fresh air.
Wearing a mask doesn't harm the immune system..that idea is based on misunderstanding how both masks and the immune system work.
Here's a good backgrounder on that:
Wearing A Mask To Protect Against Covid-19 Coronavirus Will Not Weaken Your Immune System
https://www.forbes.com/sites/victor...ot-weaken-your-immune-system/?sh=4162a9747b88
"Plandemic" Fact-Check
https://covidstudentresponse.org/info/plandemic-fact-check/#masks-and-the-immune-system
Here's a good backgrounder on that:
Wearing A Mask To Protect Against Covid-19 Coronavirus Will Not Weaken Your Immune System
https://www.forbes.com/sites/victor...ot-weaken-your-immune-system/?sh=4162a9747b88
"Plandemic" Fact-Check
https://covidstudentresponse.org/info/plandemic-fact-check/#masks-and-the-immune-system
mensasnem
Member
No one wants to look at the facts.
1. You're just as likely to contract and die of ordinary flu as you are coronavirus -- no one is suggesting lockdowns or masks for ordinary flu.
2. A hundred years ago it was demonstrated that cloth masks do not (I repeat, do NOT) slow or stop the spread of airborne viruses -- a hundred years ago.
3. If lockdowns and masks were necessary for survival, then why is anyone alive in Sweden.
4. If lockdowns and masks slow down and stop the spread of coronavirus, then why are there so many deaths in New York and New Jersey, where mask requirements and lockdowns have been the greatest.
5. A hundred years ago, it was demonstrated that vitamin D is the only effective countermeasure for respiratory viral diseases. In Europe, the governments are finally telling people to take vitamin D. Why isn't our government and the medical community telling people to take vitamin D?
Anyone who talks about the facts is marginalized as being stupid, ignorant, or possessed of a desire to kill everyone. Allow fact, reason, logic, and science rule the day, rather than fear, hysteria, non-sense, and pseudoscience.
Clinical studies demonstrate that flu shots are no more effective than placebo. Yet, the government and the medical community continue to push them. Why?
1. You're just as likely to contract and die of ordinary flu as you are coronavirus -- no one is suggesting lockdowns or masks for ordinary flu.
2. A hundred years ago it was demonstrated that cloth masks do not (I repeat, do NOT) slow or stop the spread of airborne viruses -- a hundred years ago.
3. If lockdowns and masks were necessary for survival, then why is anyone alive in Sweden.
4. If lockdowns and masks slow down and stop the spread of coronavirus, then why are there so many deaths in New York and New Jersey, where mask requirements and lockdowns have been the greatest.
5. A hundred years ago, it was demonstrated that vitamin D is the only effective countermeasure for respiratory viral diseases. In Europe, the governments are finally telling people to take vitamin D. Why isn't our government and the medical community telling people to take vitamin D?
Anyone who talks about the facts is marginalized as being stupid, ignorant, or possessed of a desire to kill everyone. Allow fact, reason, logic, and science rule the day, rather than fear, hysteria, non-sense, and pseudoscience.
Clinical studies demonstrate that flu shots are no more effective than placebo. Yet, the government and the medical community continue to push them. Why?
That's all untrue.
And Sweden has repudiated what it did. Etc.
It's sad and tiring to see people turning to disinformation when the severity of Covid and proof of safety and efficacy of masks and vaccines is there for all to see.
Meanwhile, my friend has died from Covid.
That can't actually be what you want to keep happening... but covid denial will only increase suffering and death. Take a step back and think about the consequences of what you're advocating on the lives of people you know and care about.
And Sweden has repudiated what it did. Etc.
It's sad and tiring to see people turning to disinformation when the severity of Covid and proof of safety and efficacy of masks and vaccines is there for all to see.
Meanwhile, my friend has died from Covid.
That can't actually be what you want to keep happening... but covid denial will only increase suffering and death. Take a step back and think about the consequences of what you're advocating on the lives of people you know and care about.
beckster51
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I don't know where you are getting your information, but it is all incorrect. This is not factual data, and no one is
1. The death rate from Covid is much higher than the flu. Yes, people can die from the flu, but the death rate is much lower.
2. The CDC has demonstrated through experiments that appropriately made cloth masks do work to protect people from the virus. A hundred years ago, they wore gauze masks, which are ineffective because they are so porous.
3. Sweden has one of the highest death rates in Europe, so their experiment with herd immunity has not been successful with decreasing deaths in their country. Even though they have a high death rate, they still have not achieved herd immunity.
4. Vitamin D "may" be helpful, but there are no definitive studies that document that it is a successful adjunctive treatment. We currently do have treatments that are effective for viruses, but they are not as effective as antibiotics are against susceptible bacteria.
5. Why you would refer to medical knowledge of 100 years ago as being an appropriate reference for today boggles my mind. During the 1918 flu epidemic, the population was vaccinated with a vaccine for a bacteria instead of a virus. They did not even know it was a virus, so the vaccine was totally ineffective since they had no knowledge of viruses at that time.
6. The flu vaccine is variable in its effectiveness, since it is a different vaccine every year. It is prepared by extrapolating/guessing which viruses will be prevalent in the this hemisphere based on what viruses were prevalent in the other hemispheres before flu season here. You can look up how effective it was each year by looking at the CDC website. They admit it is often not as effective as they would like. But no one has documented that it no more effective than a placebo since there have been no studies that gave the entire population a placebo or a flu shot then compared data based on incidence.
No one is calling you stupid or ignorant, but your assertions are not correct. It is dangerous to spread misinformation, and that is what this is. If anyone would like references for my facts, I would be happy to hunt them up and give them to you, but psychological research says that you cannot change anyone's mind when they have taken an emotional position on a subject, and most people who are misinformed have taken an stand based on an emotional point of view.
There is no way to continuously avoid germs unless you live in a bubble, and as a biologist you should know that. Yes, placing someone with an immature immune system (babies) in a protective environment for years would cause their immune system to be less robust than someone's who had been exposed to more germs. That is why scientists have found that children who play outside have a more robust immune system. All adults who do not have an immune disorder have a well developed immune system and are not harmed by wearing a mask. If that were true, all the people who wear masks every day at work would be harmed, and they are not. I don't have any idea where you got this information, but it is incorrect.
I have tried to avoid posting any more about Covid 19 misinformation on this forum, but it truly makes me crazy to see all this misinformation. It's dangerous and results in poor decision making in daily living during a pandemic. I would ask that everyone look carefully at the sources they are using for information. People should heed the warnings and direction of medical and scientific professionals. I would never argue with someone about a subject that I was not an expert in. Think about why you are doing that exact thing if you are stating that the experts are all wrong.
I'd like to mention also that the death rate of Covid has surpassed the death rate of the flu compounded over several seasons now. Last time I checked it was the last five flu seasons, but that has been a couple of months ago so I would venture to say we're closing in on six years (and Covid is just coming up on it's first year here, depending on the sources you read).
Additionally, just because a patient doesn't die of Covid, doesn't mean they won't have possibly life-long complications from the disease. I know several people who now have COPD as a direct result of Covid. People are also having strokes, some people have enlarged hearts as a result, heck I've even heard of people who are now on dialysis because their kidneys have failed due to the effects that Covid had on their bodies. Some of these people are young and now have a continued life expectancy of less than a decade because of this virus.
Regarding the flu vaccine: even though it isn't as effective as I think they would like it to be, there have been several studies done that indicate strongly that the flu vaccine does protect from severe flu illness (people who get the vaccine are less likely to be hospitalized and/or die from the flu).
The misinformation is so frustrating to me too. A lot of people have a very short-term outlook on this situation.
Meanwhile I'll just sit over here in New Zealand where we have only a handful of current cases, all in managed isolation facilities where they are placed on arrival into the country. We've had two lockdowns - one the entire country for 4 weeks, and the other just the biggest city for 2 weeks. Stoping the spread is critical. We are back up and fully functioning as a country, the housing market is buoyant, and my sisters who run their own retail business have never been so busy ( and have been this way since the lockdown lifted in May).
beckster51
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I'm sorry to hear that you have lost a friend. I have been very lucky thus far, and I have not lost anyone to this disease yet. I'm sure I would be much more frustrated with misinformation if I had lost a loved one. My condolences.
fish123
Member
Dear paradisi, you obviously did not read my answer (#1,165) to you? That you still offer me information from "Forbes" - in your opinion THIS is THE authority to get information about how Immunity works? biologist and doctors have to learn from "Forbes" to make their opinion???
I would laugh if such ignorance wouldn't be so sad...
Btw, the very same "authorities" cried out loud in February and March - "DO NOT WEAR MASKS - MASKS DO NOT HELP!" - on all channels and pages! - and ultimately promoted high infection rates making sure this virus becomes unstoppable (though with 85% asymptomatic infections it essentially IS unstoppable, as we know now)
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