Conditioning (vs Longevity, Cleansing, etc)

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Garden Gives Me Joy

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I never realized until recently that there was a 'longevity score' and that mine always fell below the recommended range.

Example:
Olive, 70%
Palm Kernel, 25%
Castor, 5%

Properties: 21 BU; 16 CL; 67 CO; 31 HA; 14 LO (recommended range50); 19 CR

-- or --

Example:
Olive, 63.5%
Palm Kernel, 31%
Castor, 5%
Stearic acid, 0.5%

Properties: 25 BU; 20 CL; 63 CO; 35 HA; 14 LO recommended range is 25-50); 19 CR


Which fatty acids and fats would have improved longevity? If I must sacrifice some conditioning (for more longevity fatty acids, I imagine like stearic acid), what is usually the lowest conditioning score that can feels 'really nice'? I like to aim for 60. Is that too high? ... If so, do you aim for around 5x and simply use additives (like oats) to compensate for lower conditioning scores?

If castile / bastile soap is not a good example (because olive oil cures like a very hard fat), happy for your comments regarding the soap properties alone.


ps. I am assuming that 'longevity' relates to how well the soap survives after exposure to water / use.
 

DeeAnna

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This "longevity" number is the combined percentage of stearic acid + palmitic acid in the recipe. Fats high in these fatty acids will increase this number. They include tallow, lard, palm (not palm kernel), hydrogenated fats such as soy wax, and the nut butters (cocoa, shea, etc.)

There's such a thing as too much or too little of a good thing when it comes to optimizing the amount of stearic + palmitic. Most people who want a longer lasting soap shoot for a combined percentage of 30% to 40%. Anything below 30% is likely to be a short lived soap. Anything more than 40% is likely to not lather well.

All that said, this is a preference, not a black and white requirement. If your soap falls outside the "optimum" range for the combined palmitic + stearic ... but you're happy with it ... there is absolutely no reason to change.

The amount of combined palmitic + stearic isn't the only thing that contributes to a long lived soap. Other additives, the degree of curing, how the soap is used in the bath, etc. also affect longevity.
 
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TheGecko

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I'll be honest...never really paid much attention to those numbers. It's soap, it's supposed to get you clean and if you cure it properly and don't let it sit in a puddle of water, it will last for quite a while. So my only concern...how does my skin feel when I get out of the shower or wash my hands? So I just made soap, let it cure, washed with it and then decided whether or not I liked it.

For the most part, my over 'number' is just shy of being smack dab in the middle. Most of my 'numbers' are also shy of being in the middle...'creamy' is on the higher side of middle. When it comes to my Fatty Acid profile, my three highest numbers...in order are Oleic, Palmitic and Stearic with Oleic being better than double Palmitic and four time Stearic. I'm just getting into FA's, but my soap seems to buck what @lsg because my soap lasts a long time. I don't know.
 

Garden Gives Me Joy

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So thankful for your responses.

... They include tallow, lard, palm (not palm kernel), hydrogenated fats such as soy wax, and the nut butters (cocoa, shea, etc.)

For the longest while I have been confused about what "palm oil" in soap calculators mean or don't mean.

Available to me are 1) red, viscous liquid palm oil and 2) palm shortening. Is palm shortening 'crisco new w palm' in calculators and the red type.'palm oil' ? SO CONFUSED! because I often see YT videos featuring 'palm oil' that is white and firm like my palm shortening. ... but imagine you are currently referring to the hard white product in YT videos. HELP !!!

ps: What a surprise re PKO!
 

DeeAnna

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Palm oil is the oil extracted from the palm fruit. It is more like lard and the nut butters -- high in stearic and palmitic acids.

It may or may not be the same thing as palm shortening. I have no idea if it's the same as Crisco with palm. You'd have to read the nutrition labels and ingredients lists to find out.

Red palm oil is palm oil before the color has been removed. After the color has been removed, palm oil is white when solidified.

Palm solidifies about 95 F so if you live in a hot climate, it might be liquid more often than not..

Palm kernel oil (PKO) is the oil extracted from the nut (the kernel) inside the palm fruit. PKO is more like coconut oil -- high in lauric and myristic acids.
 

TheGecko

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Most soap suppliers sell Palm Oil and some even sell a ‘no stir’ version. I personally choose a PO that is RSPO…meaning that it has been responsibly and sustainable produced.

Palm Oil is a hard oil…it is solid and is an off-white with a slight yellowish tinge. It is recommended that you melt and shake you container of PO before weighing out so that that stearic acid is distributed throughout.

I have a couple of jars of Red Palm Oil…it is normally solid at room temperature.
 
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Palm oil is the oil extracted from the palm fruit. It is more like lard and the nut butters -- high in stearic and palmitic acids.

It may or may not be the same thing as palm shortening. I have no idea if it's the same as Crisco with palm. You'd have to read the nutrition labels and ingredients lists to find out.

Red palm oil is palm oil before the color has been removed. After the color has been removed, palm oil is white when solidified.

Palm solidifies about 95 F so if you live in a hot climate, it might be liquid more often than not..

Palm kernel oil (PKO) is the oil extracted from the nut (the kernel) inside the palm fruit. PKO is more like coconut oil -- high in lauric and myristic acids.
The All Vegetable Crisco which is the one with Palm Oil also has Soybean Oil which is actually the first ingredient.

No-Stir Palm Oil is the same as Palm Shortening which many times comes in 50lb cubes from Restaurant suppliers. Soapers Choice also sells it as far as I know. Palm Shortening is homogenized palm oil.
 

Garden Gives Me Joy

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The All Vegetable Crisco which is the one with Palm Oil also has Soybean Oil which is actually the first ingredient.

No-Stir Palm Oil is the same as Palm Shortening which many times comes in 50lb cubes from Restaurant suppliers. Soapers Choice also sells it as far as I know. Palm Shortening is homogenized palm oil.

Gulp! I have been making the wrong selection in soap calculators for years. Specifically, I've been selecting 'crisco w palm' because I didn't have any other option for the red less processed indisputable palm oil (which supplers here sell as 'palm oil'. I'm unsure whether it's because here is a palm oil producer meaning that most palm products are very cheap but cosmetics suppliers here never sell palm shortening. It's dirt cheap in supermarkets.

Wish soap calculators offered an option for red palm oil and that the 'palm oil' in calculators says 'hydrogenated' etc, just as the case for other non palm fats.

This discussion certainly explains why my red 'palm oil' soap was too soft. I was so unsure of how to deal with it after that that I just abandoned the remainder.

What selection should one use for red palm oil?
 
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DeeAnna

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...What selection should one use for red palm oil?

Doesn't it make sense to use the sap value for palm oil? Red palm oil is palm oil, after all, regardless of whether it has color or not.

Same thing applies to other fats that have refined and unrefined types. Shea and cocoa butter are two examples I can think of quickly. You still use the same sap value whether the fat is refined or unrefined.
 
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Christa10

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Oils high in oleic acid usually don't add up to a long longevity in soap. Soapmaking Recipe Builder & Lye Calculator,
gives a description of the fatty acids of each oil/fat. Just hover the selection arrow to the right of each oil under "Select Oils".
Thank you for including a link to this soap calculator. I have been using Soapee but this also lists all the fatty acids, so I am going to use it from now on!
 
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So thankful for your responses.



For the longest while I have been confused about what "palm oil" in soap calculators mean or don't mean.

Available to me are 1) red, viscous liquid palm oil and 2) palm shortening. Is palm shortening 'crisco new w palm' in calculators and the red type.'palm oil' ? SO CONFUSED! because I often see YT videos featuring 'palm oil' that is white and firm like my palm shortening. ... but imagine you are currently referring to the hard white product in YT videos. HELP !!!

ps: What a surprise re PKO!
Ditto that SAP values are equal for palm oil (white) and red palm oil. Please note that red palm oil is a STRONG colorant. I use a max of 5% and get a yellow -- think Dial soap. If you do a search, several members here have done experiments with varying percentages.
 
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