Colour Safe Syndet Shampoo bars

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Asterousia

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Then the distributors are probably not aware that those are two different chemicals. Also, "cocoamidopropyl" on that page is a typo. It's actually spelled "cocamidopropyl" without that extra "o".
You are right about the typo. Avena Lab's website is very informative, whenever I buy a new active I go there to pick up the important data. Its staff is surprisingly compentent in comparaison to other cosmetic ingredient sellers. Many similar websites in Germany and France advertise it as "Betain" of "Coco Betain", but when you look for INCI name, it reads "cocamidopropyl betain". Sometimes Germans write "natural" before "betain" to differ it from plain "betain" surfactant.

Dragonspice | 2 Treffer für

Thank God INCI name is mandatory in description, it tells us all we have to know about the ingredient.

I am glad to hear that. Too many people lately think the pH of shampoo doesn't matter, and it absolutely does. Sounds like you already know what you're doing.
Yes, it does matter. For scalp is ideally 4.5, for hair 5-6. Shikakai is another ayurvedic plant I always add in syndet bar at 10%, but this time I will have to lower it down in order to squeeze two new surfactants in. Having in mind coco glucoside and Resplanta's PGA avocado oil (hydrosoluble oil) with its pH between 6.8-8.5, I will introduce for the first time baobab fruit pulp powder, rich in Vitamin C. Hopefully pH might fall within desirable range in the first trial with so many acidic ingredients. Tweaking solid shampoo's pH is a real pain in the butt, since you can't reheat it and simply add citric acid. The sample is just wasted.

I had done a quick Google search before posting to see what type of dye henna is, but found that it's available as different kinds so I wasn't sure what you had. But the important thing is, if harsh shampoo will remove even permanent dye, it will definitely remove the more temporary kind.
Henna must origin from reputable source. On the market many brands sell it as "henna" but it can be loaded with toxic chemicals. Henna can only dye hair in red and when you get the whole palette of colours (black, chestnut brown etc), it can't be pure henna. Black and brown nuances take two step method in applying to hair (especially on grey hair) which is very tiresome.

I buy it on Aroma Zone. It's the best ratio quality/price I could find in Europe. Amazingly cheap, but excellent quality and 100% pure plant.

 

Asterousia

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We can't get SLMI in NZ. I do use SCI, but I also use foaming apple, SLSA, Capryl Glucoside and DLS. It is said that the more surfactants used, the milder the recipe, so that's what I was aiming for there. I don't use cocamidopropyl betaine by choice as it's a known irritant for eczema sufferers. The pH of my bars falls around 4.8 - 5.3 at most.
This sounds perfect to me. I'd say permanent dyes are not as sensitive as henna is, but if your customers are using henna, SCI might trigger a problem. I will get back here with my report in September, so you'll have a feedback.

As for CAPB, I think I read a post on this forum from a psoriasis sufferer who doesn't have a problem with it at all in her custom-made syndet bar for body washing. It is mild enough to be used for baby cosmetics, but I agree it is also known as water pollutant.

As for SLMI, maybe you could contact this supplier from NZ....it sells it in liquid form, but maybe could order from manufacturer Innospec in powder form (better option) or flakes (less favourable option):

 

Asterousia

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Not wanting to hijack this thread, but I just had a look-around for SLMI and found one brief reference to it on SwiftyCraftyMonkey, but no linked suppliers and no explanation of its properties as a surfactant. Anyone have more info to share about this ingredient?
This is the link to the manufacturer's website (Innospec), with regional locations map:


It comes with copywrite name Isolux:


But you can find plenty of resources if you type Sodium Lauroyl Methyl Isethionate into Google search field.

Opt for powder form, it will save you time for heating and melting.
 
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Asterousia

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That's interesting - thank you for posting. I wish there were some other tests done using other surfactants too!
You're welcome. The article is 6 years old, I don't think the new generation of surfactants existed at the time. It would be helpful if they continued to do the research with updated (new) surfactants, but somehow I reckon they're done and over with. Now it's up to us to draw conclusions from trial and error :) On French websites, when describing SLMI, it is always stressed out that it has excellent colour protective properties. I also ran accross statements of henna users that SLMI is much better in colour protection department than SCI. As far as I could see, SLMI is the only surfactant advertised as colour protective one.


(description and user review)
 

KiwiMoose

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From my experience with henna treated hair (no artificial colours, just henna from Egypt mixed with ayurvedic plant powders), SCI is devastating for such hair. I made my own syndet shampoo bar containing 30% SCI, 10% hydrosoluble avocado oil, some distilled water, the rest being ayurvedic plant powders, preservative and essential oils.

So Kiwi, from what I learnt, I'd suggest you aim for SLMI instead of SCI, 'cause if it's gentle toward henna treated hair, it will be gentle toward coloured hair too.
Just an afterthought - I wonder what the pH of your shampoo is? I adjust mine wiht lactic acid. Is it possible that it's not SCI, but a higher pH that is causing the colour fade?
 

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Henna can only dye hair in red and when you get the whole palette of colours (black, chestnut brown etc), it can't be pure henna. Black and brown nuances take two step method in applying to hair (especially on grey hair) which is very tiresome.
The two-step application process is only required if you are going for black. I actually get a nice dark brown by mixing pure henna directly with pure indigo (along with tea, amla, fenugreek, and a few other things) and applying the mixed paste in one go. And yes, it is 100% pure henna, no other chemicals, from a very reputable supplier.

However, making the paste does take a two-step activation process, since henna requires time to activate, whereas indigo must be used pretty quickly after activating it. So I start by activating the henna overnight, then activate the indigo about 15 minutes before mixing the two and applying them as a one-step mix.

Back to SLMI, the information I'm finding is not completely clear. MakeYourOwn.buzz doesn't carry SMLI, but they do carry SLI, which is described in the statement below. I've highlighted their claim that SLI is a dry equivalent of SMLI, which is supposed liquid only -- but other sites say that SMLI comes in liquid, powder or flake. ?????

Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate
A unique surfactant, Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate, often known by the name "SLI," is a mild anionic surfactant, that is derived from coconut. SLI is used in a wide variety of skin and hair care products.

Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate (SLI) is a new generation surfactant that is salt and sulfate free, has excellent detergency, and is used as a gentle cleansing agent in several applications in hair and skin care like shampoos, body washes, facial cleansers. SLI is a high foaming product that when used will provide dense, creamy lather to formulations.

It is naturally derived from fatty acids derived from coconut. This is an ingredient used in many products where a formulator wants a naturally derived and biodegradable profile. This "chunk" version of SLI can be used in several ways - it can be melted, or easily dissolved in other base surfactants or polysorbates or glycerin.

Used in a wide variety of products soap, bath bombs, bubble bars, shampoo and conditioner bars, and shampoo and body washes. SLI has limited solubility in soft and hard water, however it can be dispersed in water. This form of SLI, a chunk, does not contribute to dusting that can be seen with products in powder form. It is stable in aqueous formulations from pH 6-8 at ambient temperature.

* The liquid version of this is approved by Whole Foods, for their premium body care ingredients by the name of Sodium Lauroyl Methyl Isethionate, so it would be reasonable to assume this version could be possibly approved in that category as well although no guarantees could be made and acceptance is responsibility of formulator and those selling to Whole Foods.
 
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Quanta

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You are right about the typo. Avena Lab's website is very informative, whenever I buy a new active I go there to pick up the important data. Its staff is surprisingly compentent in comparaison to other cosmetic ingredient sellers. Many similar websites in Germany and France advertise it as "Betain" of "Coco Betain", but when you look for INCI name, it reads "cocamidopropyl betain". Sometimes Germans write "natural" before "betain" to differ it from plain "betain" surfactant.

Dragonspice | 2 Treffer für

Thank God INCI name is mandatory in description, it tells us all we have to know about the ingredient.
I find it annoying when vendors name their product listings according to customer misconceptions. It only perpetuates the misconceptions. I'm also glad they are putting the INCI name in the description.

Yes, it does matter. For scalp is ideally 4.5, for hair 5-6. Shikakai is another ayurvedic plant I always add in syndet bar at 10%, but this time I will have to lower it down in order to squeeze two new surfactants in. Having in mind coco glucoside and Resplanta's PGA avocado oil (hydrosoluble oil) with its pH between 6.8-8.5, I will introduce for the first time baobab fruit pulp powder, rich in Vitamin C. Hopefully pH might fall within desirable range in the first trial with so many acidic ingredients. Tweaking solid shampoo's pH is a real pain in the butt, since you can't reheat it and simply add citric acid. The sample is just wasted.
I use a jeweler's scale for test batches, so I can make a smaller bar. Ones that aren't suitable as shampoo get used either as body wash, or for washing hands at the bathroom sink. That way they still get used up and I don't feel so bad about wasting ingredients.

Henna must origin from reputable source. On the market many brands sell it as "henna" but it can be loaded with toxic chemicals. Henna can only dye hair in red and when you get the whole palette of colours (black, chestnut brown etc), it can't be pure henna. Black and brown nuances take two step method in applying to hair (especially on grey hair) which is very tiresome.

I buy it on Aroma Zone. It's the best ratio quality/price I could find in Europe. Amazingly cheap, but excellent quality and 100% pure plant.

I was wondering how they got so many different shades out of one source of pigment. Thanks for explaining.

Just an afterthought - I wonder what the pH of your shampoo is? I adjust mine wiht lactic acid. Is it possible that it's not SCI, but a higher pH that is causing the colour fade?
See post #21.

Back to SLMI, the information I'm finding is not completely clear. MakeYourOwn.buzz doesn't carry SMLI, but they do carry SLI, which is described in the statement below.
MakeYourOwn.buzz does carry SLMI, although it is in a liquid blend with CAPB and other surfactants. It was the only reasonably priced source I could find for Sodium Methyl Oleoyl Taurate, and the other ingredients looked good so I got some. I haven't used it very much, in a shampoo bar I used it only once but it was nice. I used it in place of the CAPB in the formula. I am going to experiment with it some more in shampoo. It is called Iselux Ultra Mild:
 

AliOop

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MakeYourOwn.buzz does carry SLMI, although it is in a liquid blend with CAPB and other surfactants. It was the only reasonably priced source I could find for Sodium Methyl Oleoyl Taurate, and the other ingredients looked good so I got some. I haven't used it very much, in a shampoo bar I used it only once but it was nice. I used it in place of the CAPB in the formula. I am going to experiment with it some more in shampoo. It is called Iselux Ultra Mild:
Thanks for sharing your experience. I guess I was expecting a solid surfactant to replace some of the SCI, because other sites show it in flake form. And I wanted a solid replacement because my favorite formula to date uses 73% SCI by weight in its recipe, which is higher than the recommended limit of 50%.

However, while reading on the SCM blog today I learned that this recipe percentage is a bit misleading. SCI is not 100% pure; usually it is around 80-86% SCI with a blend of other ingredients. Turns out my SCI is only 82% active, which (if I've done the math correctly, which is not a given) means that the recipe calling for 73% SCI actually contains only 59% pure SCI. That is much closer to the highest recommended amount of just over 50%.

Susan on SCM also said that the "highest recommended amount" is not based on independent research as to actual safety. Rather, it is only based on the products that are out on the market today. That's why the previously "highest recommended amount" of 49% was upped to 50% - some product maker is now marketing a product with 50% instead of 49%. It all seems a bit fishy to me, but the bottom line is there is nothing definitive to say that more than 50% is somehow harmful - only that current manufacturers use it up to 50%.
 

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@AliOop - I just came on here to report back from my readings of SCM's blog. I note that she states as long as you formulate a 'mild' bar using 'mild' ingredients and the pH is under 6 then you can deem your shampoo to be colour safe. SCI is considered both mild and gentle. She also says that sodium lauryl sulphate is not mild. There is apparently a lot of marketing hype around being colour-safe but as long as the shampoo is mild and under 6 pH , then you're all good.

Regarding the use of SLMI - apparently it is very difficult to replace a portion of your SCI with this (I was considering doing the same as you here) because it does not make for a hard bar. It actually dissolves and makes a solution with any liquid in the bar, whereas SCI melts and mixes with the liquid surfactants. She was unable to make a 'solid' bar, and states that it became more of a 'butter' consistency.

I think, therefore, that my current shampoo bar is perfectly fine for colour-treated hair as it is mild and has a low enough pH. Marketing has a lot to answer for! Here i am trying to defend my product just because I don't have the authority of a large corporation to back me up. And it's funny how people won't believe me, but will believe Proctor and Gamble or Johnson and Johnson even though they are not using mild surfactants.
 

Asterousia

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Just an afterthought - I wonder what the pH of your shampoo is? I adjust mine wiht lactic acid. Is it possible that it's not SCI, but a higher pH that is causing the colour fade?
Actually it was a bit on the acidic side....I don't have a pH meter, not sure if I would know how to calibrate it properly, but I use pH strips instead with 4 squares (precision 0.5) and pH was around 4 (10% solution in distilled water). It's not what I aimed for (lower than favourable) but since it was a 30 gram sample intended for summer holiday, I used it as it is. "Surfactant" list contained 30% SCI, 10% shikakai, 10% Resplanta PGA avocado oil and I couldn't find anything but lower pH* and SCI to be so detrimental for colour. I think that SCI is rather harsh surfactant, my scalp wasn't happy either. SLMI foams much better and is milder, if you substitute it in formula with SCI, you'd have to raise SCI by 10% to get the same foaming effects.

* - for henna treated hair, ACV rinses are also bad idea...so syndet bar shouldn't be below 4.5 nor higher than 6

At the time of making my first syndet bar, I knew nothing about sufractants, just copied and adjusted recipe from Aroma-Zone. Only later did I find that combination of anionic, non-ionic and amphoteric surfactants, with cationic polymers should be present for optimal results.
 

Asterousia

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The two-step application process is only required if you are going for black. I actually get a nice dark brown by mixing pure henna directly with pure indigo (along with tea, amla, fenugreek, and a few other things) and applying the mixed paste in one go. And yes, it is 100% pure henna, no other chemicals, from a very reputable supplier.

However, making the paste does take a two-step activation process, since henna requires time to activate, whereas indigo must be used pretty quickly after activating it. So I start by activating the henna overnight, then activate the indigo about 15 minutes before mixing the two and applying them as a one-step mix.
Obviously you are lucky not to have grey hair :) On henna hair forums for covering grey hair, experienced members advise to use two step application. Both katam (for warm brown tones) and indigo (for black or cool brown hue) stick to the red pigment and they are rinsing off much faster than pure henna. If you don't have at least pure henna cought on grey hair, katam or indigo will not colour it brown/black....they will just give some ashy bluish colour. I think I'd freak out when seeing a result :) Since my hair is growing fast, I'd go nuts with exposed roots requiring two step applicaton. It's even better to use pure henna, and leave it as is for a 5-6 days and then apply mixture of henna+katham/indigo. Just to give red pigment time enough to settle in. This becomes offtopic, I'm stopping here :)


Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate
A unique surfactant, Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate, often known by the name "SLI," is a mild anionic surfactant, that is derived from coconut. SLI is used in a wide variety of skin and hair care products.

Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate (SLI) is a new generation surfactant that is salt and sulfate free, has excellent detergency, and is used as a gentle cleansing agent in several applications in hair and skin care like shampoos, body washes, facial cleansers. SLI is a high foaming product that when used will provide dense, creamy lather to formulations.

It is naturally derived from fatty acids derived from coconut. This is an ingredient used in many products where a formulator wants a naturally derived and biodegradable profile. This "chunk" version of SLI can be used in several ways - it can be melted, or easily dissolved in other base surfactants or polysorbates or glycerin.

Used in a wide variety of products soap, bath bombs, bubble bars, shampoo and conditioner bars, and shampoo and body washes. SLI has limited solubility in soft and hard water, however it can be dispersed in water. This form of SLI, a chunk, does not contribute to dusting that can be seen with products in powder form. It is stable in aqueous formulations from pH 6-8 at ambient temperature.

* The liquid version of this is approved by Whole Foods, for their premium body care ingredients by the name of Sodium Lauroyl Methyl Isethionate, so it would be reasonable to assume this version could be possibly approved in that category as well although no guarantees could be made and acceptance is responsibility of formulator and those selling to Whole Foods.
This is weird. SLMI in Europe comes mainly in flakes, but also in powder and rarely in liquid form (as a surfactant blend). But this is all sodium lauroyl methyl isethionate, I didn't find anywhere with "methyl" omitted. There is also a "Isolux Ultra mild" surfactant blend in liquid form, with INCI name:

INCI: Water (and) Sodium Lauroyl Methyl Isethionate (and) Cocamidoapropyl Betaine (and) Sodium Methyl Oleoyl Taurate (and) Lauryl Glucoside (and) Coco-Glucoside

You can write them and ask for INCI name. Maybe it's similar to CAPB and natural betain discussion we had here recently.
 

Asterousia

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Regarding the use of SLMI - apparently it is very difficult to replace a portion of your SCI with this (I was considering doing the same as you here) because it does not make for a hard bar. It actually dissolves and makes a solution with any liquid in the bar, whereas SCI melts and mixes with the liquid surfactants. She was unable to make a 'solid' bar, and states that it became more of a 'butter' consistency.
I'm not subscribed to Swifty's blog and I can't read her posts, but it's strange she couldn't substitute SCI for SLMI. It does make softer bars, but with some tweaking, it's quite managable. Louizette has made a wide range of SLMI syndet bars (more of less successful) on her blog:


She duped Druyde's syndet bar for babies and claims it's even better than the original. She evolved from using only one surfactant to combining two or three, but what I like about her is that she's trying to go to the lowest limit of surfactant use. For Druyde's dupe, she used only 27% SLMI and it's foaming nicely. SCI would have to go in higher percentage, at least at 40% if it's the only surfactant.

I suppose everyone is different, but SCI is not suitable for my scalp nor my henna treated hair.
 

Asterousia

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I find it annoying when vendors name their product listings according to customer misconceptions. It only perpetuates the misconceptions. I'm also glad they are putting the INCI name in the description.
Couldn't agree more.

I use a jeweler's scale for test batches, so I can make a smaller bar. Ones that aren't suitable as shampoo get used either as body wash, or for washing hands at the bathroom sink. That way they still get used up and I don't feel so bad about wasting ingredients.
I've got this USB charged scale (presicion 0.01 gram, max.weight 600 grams) that I use for cosmetic experiments:


I made a 30 gram sample, 'cause I can always give it to the male member of family, who will not fuss about vanishing hair colour or pH range (short hair)...since I make CP soaps, I would never go to syndet bar for body wash, just love my soaps too much....but I'm also against soap bar being used as a shampoo. Each one has its justification and optimal purpose.

I was wondering how they got so many different shades out of one source of pigment. Thanks for explaining.
I wrote in more detail in one of the previous (today's) posts. Red pigment is relatively stable, but brown and black (with a little help of katham or indigo) have tendency to be washed away quickly. The harsher the surfactant, the faster the colour stripping. Grey hair cannot absorb brown or black pigment without previous saturation with red one. That is why it is essential to apply two step colouring and not to expect for it to last as pure henna would last.

For young girls without greys, combo of different plants can dye hair in red (lighter or darker) or shades of brown in one application, but it will wash away quickly. What some vendors sell in most cases is a permanent dye but under name of "henna and ayurvedic plants".

I wish someone would invent natural colouring that is not so complicated and time consuming to use. Or maybe to halt hair growing - switch on/off (not having to cover the roots) or devising mild surfactants, gentle toward plant colours.
 
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AliOop

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@Asterousia so interesting... I never colored my hair ever until I was 55+ with lots of grey. The very first thing I tried was my homemade mix of pure henna with pure indigo, and it worked perfectly. 😅

But I totally agree, If I were forced to do the two-step process, I'd probably pass because the mess and time involved wouldn't be worth the bother to me. My hair also grows so fast, with touch-ups needed at two weeks (although I use spray-on temporary color to push it out further).

Perhaps the results depend on hair type, or the additives used with the henna-indigo mix. I add amla, black tea, and fenugreek to mine. Shampoo definitely fades the color faster than I would like, but fortunately my hair is dry and curly, and thus isn't washed as often.

Now that I know that SCI is harder on the color, I am very interested in SLMI - which brings us back to shampoo bars! It does seem like the availability of SLMI in flake or powder form is pretty limited in the USA. On MakeYourOwn.Buzz, the INCI listed for SLI is Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate (no methyl), which is why I am very skeptical about the claim that it is "the dry equivalent" of SLMI. How can it be equivalent if the INCI name is different?
 
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KiwiMoose

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@Asterousia

Now that I know that SCI is harder on the color, I am very interested in SLMI - which brings us back to shampoo bars! It does seem like the availability of SLMI in flake or powder form is pretty limited in the USA. On MakeYourOwn.Buzz, the INCI listed for SLI is Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate (no methyl), which is why I am very skeptical about the claim that it is "the dry equivalent" of SLMI. How can it be equivalent if the INCI name is different?
Apparently all the isethionates are all 'siblings' according to Susan at SCM - which stands to reason given they all share the same 'i'.

I guess if you used the SLMI as the liquid component in your formulation that could work? But my liquid surfactants are made up of a few things - foaming apple being the main one - which I am reluctant to replace, especially since I imported all the way from the USA and I have a ton of it to use up.

@AliOop - reach SLMI in Susan's blog and have a read.
 

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@KiwiMoose I will, thanks! I read a bit of it yesterday, but always have trouble connecting all the dots between the various blog posts scattered across the site.
 

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@Asterousia so interesting... I never colored my hair ever until I was 55+ with lots of grey. The very first thing I tried was my homemade mix of pure henna with pure indigo, and it worked perfectly. 😅
How I envy you on this :) I read all posts on the subject on internet and experiences from users on Aroma Zone website (since I use their plant powders). Mixture of henna from Egypt (AZ) and katam (AZ) in one application doesn't cover grey hair and I won't use henna from Yemen or Rajasthan, 'cause I don't like the colour. Tried boiled Arabica coffee, everything that came to mind to kill this darned carrot colour and finally settled with boiled onion peels that gave me this coppery outcome, which is the most I can do in one step. I add lots of other powders (amla, brahmi, bhringharaj, cinammon, clove, kapoor kachli, sidr). Don't think that amla changes the colour into darker shades, the only thing that really made difference was onion peel concoction.

But I totally agree, If I were forced to do the two-step process, I'd probably pass because the mess and time involved wouldn't be worth the bother to me. My hair also grows so fast, with touch-ups needed at two weeks (although I use spray-on temporary color to push it out further).
I should do a touch-up after 4 weeks but due to hectic schedual, I prolong the next henna application for 6-8 weeks. Don't use any temporary/quick fix :) And yes, I do look terrible through this span "week no.5"-"week no.8".

Perhaps the results depend on hair type, or the additives used with the henna-indigo mix. I add amla, black tea, and fenugreek to mine. Shampoo definitely fades the color faster than I would like, but fortunately my hair is dry and curly, and thus isn't washed as often.
Have you considered shikakai based "shampoo" enhanced with other plant powders suitable for your hair type? I wash my hair with it once a week and henna is well perserved. If only my hair wouldn't grow, everything would be hunky dory.

Now that I know that SCI is harder on the color, I am very interested in SLMI - which brings us back to shampoo bars! It does seem like the availability of SLMI in flake or powder form is pretty limited in the USA. On MakeYourOwn.Buzz, the INCI listed for SLI is Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate (no methyl), which is why I am very skeptical about the claim that it is "the dry equivalent" of SLMI. How can it be equivalent if the INCI name is different?
Be it flakes, powder or liquid form, it's still the same INCI name: sodium lauroyl methyl isethionate (or isothionate, it can be used as synonym). "Innospec" provided this list of ishetionates with different comercial names, but their INCI name remains the same.


There is no "dry equivalent" of SLMI, SLMI is already dry. Can be liquid also.

I'm very sorry you can't find it in a dry form in USA nor in Canada.

I will contact DragonSpice website (Germany) and check the shipping cost. If it's not gonna cost me arm and leg, I will order SLMI (and lots of other interesting cosmetic ingredients from their list that I can't find elsewhere) in October.

Dragonspice | Hilfe/Fragen | online kaufen

Thank you so much for sharing your henna experience :)
 

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@Asterousia thank you for sharing your henna experience! You are brave to put boiled onion peels on your hair. Does the smell carry through?? I'll be more likely to check into the shikakai shampoo, so I appreciate the mention. :)

I forgot until you mentioned it that I also use bhringharaj and a bit of ground clove. Can't do much of the clove or it makes my scalp so sensitive.
 

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