"cold" tripled mill process?

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apples

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this seems to be a popular method in china. i heard people refer to it as "south of france triple milled soap" (i translated from chinese). due to the process, the soap is selling triple the price of a regular handmade soap and many people swear by the "triple benefits".

here's how the process is explained:

  1. grate up some fully cured handmade soaps, soak in <30% liquid (say soybean milk or honey) overnight till the soap is soft
  2. knead the soap with hand or using stone mortar and pestle until you get a very fine consistency. make into small balls (like bath bombs) and air dry for 2 days
  3. grate the soap again, and repeat step 1 and 2
  4. then repeat step 1 and 2 again
did i understand wrongly? i can't seem to find any information in english. is anyone in this forum making soap this way? will the liquid make it smell bad?
 

Kamahido

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While I am certainly not an expert on soap making wouldn't that just make the soap contain more of whatever was used as a solvent at 30%? Kinda like a REALLY high superfat? I wonder if adding all those "extras" would cause rancidity faster...
 

apples

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Since it is not "cooked" nor will it saponify, I'm suspecting more than rancidity issue. Milk (especially fresh) is prone to spoilage and germs (throughout the repetitious milling and drink process) unless in cooler temperature. But since it seems possible to "triple infuse" the goodies into the soap, I'm thinking the method is worth a try. Probably avoiding oils and other fresh or botanical liquids? What is there to add then...?

It's either a real good soap or a real bad one in the end...?
 

IrishLass

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Genuine "Triple Milled" or 'French Milled' soap is much different than the process described above, which is probably why some have decided to nickname it 'South of France Triple Milled Soap'. LOL That's pretty clever/funny!

I personally have never heard of anyone using the process as you describe it, but it wouldn't surprise me that some out there are doing such a thing (I've run across a fair bit of strange/interesting soap recipes/techniques over the years).

The process as described above is what I would more or less call a 'triple rebatch' of sorts. Personally, I would never rebatch any of my soap in such a manner. I'm with Kamahido- depending on the amount of fat in your solvent, you'll more than likely end up with an overly superfatted soap. And since the additives are being added post-saponification, one can't expect the shelf-life to be very long at all.


IrishLass :)
 

apples

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Ah...I'm kinda looking forward to make it since it is claimed to be mild (most suitable as facial soap) with all the benefits preserved, not burnt away by the harsh cp hp or hot rebatch process...though there is no video, the soapers share photos of the process.

They even have a new term for the process in Chinese called "han milled" ("han" as in han dynasty), which is an ancient method used by chinese to make certain cosmetic . Sounds onvincing right? I really looked into it but there isn't much info (at least not in English, I've searched hi-low with all possible keywords in Google and YouTube until I got curios as to what is the popular search engine in China. There has got to be some info somewhere...).

I'm still not confident with the liquid...even in hot rebatch milk smells like baby puke...leave alone cold rebatch...but I'll give it a try next weekend when I finally decide what liquid to use (that will not spoil at least for a few months)
 

shunt2011

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I too think it's going to be a breeding ground for all kinds of bacteria and mold. I personally would never try it. You'll have to let us know how it goes.
 

Kamahido

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Has anyone else heard of such a thing? Perhaps it is just an internet hoax. Or maybe it is a method used incorrectly so many times the writer believes it is correct.
 

TeresaT

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Ah...I'm kinda looking forward to make it since it is claimed to be mild (most suitable as facial soap) with all the benefits preserved, not burnt away by the harsh cp hp or hot rebatch process...though there is no video, the soapers share photos of the process.

They even have a new term for the process in Chinese called "han milled" ("han" as in han dynasty), which is an ancient method used by chinese to make certain cosmetic . Sounds onvincing right? I really looked into it but there isn't much info (at least not in English, I've searched hi-low with all possible keywords in Google and YouTube until I got curios as to what is the popular search engine in China. There has got to be some info somewhere...).

I'm still not confident with the liquid...even in hot rebatch milk smells like baby puke...leave alone cold rebatch...but I'll give it a try next weekend when I finally decide what liquid to use (that will not spoil at least for a few months)

WATER. WATER WILL NOT SPOIL. Other than that, I'm stumped. (This is an interesting process. Although, if you think about it, depending what your original SF was, those unsaponified oils will be separated out by the water and will be kind of a free-floating oil slick. So, you'll have to knead them in really well; but they'll be more apt to spoil quicker than if the soap was left alone. At least that's my theory and I'm sticking to it.)
 

apples

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Water is a guarantee no spoilage but kinda miss the point of re-making it then (since it is made by grating up a properly made and cured soap).

Doesn't seem like internet hoax to me, quite a number of soapers selling and promoting it but no real documented proof of the benefits (it's a handmade/ traditional product anyway) I'll give it a try and post an update after that but still I wouldn't know whether it's really "milder" and more "effective" as compared to before the process. I want to experiment it anyway.

Hubby just said "go get some milk from the fridge and take a shower with any of the whatsoever soaps you have in the bathroom then get to bed..." and snooze off. It's way past bedtime here. The next I hear him grumbling about his never-growing-up plants in the garden, I'll revengefully ask him to pee on them...
 

TeresaT

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I thought the "French milled" or double milled soap was done with just water and the purpose was to make a harder and longer lasting bar. Although, to be honest, I really don't understand how that is actually possible. But I'm no scientist...

Good luck with your experiments and post pictures!
 

LisaAnne

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French milled is ran through rollers and pressed. Early on I looked into it and I guess it is impossible for the home soaper to achieve without the large expensive equipment. My understanding is milled soap is grated melted and remolded. I think brambleberry or another supplier sell soap shavings for remilled soap.
 
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lenarenee

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Its a very curious process. Lots of extra work so no wonder the cost of a bar is so high. Any idea what kind of additives they try to mix in?

At the moment I don't see a real purpose in this type of soap. Soap is a finished product of a chemical reaction, then they smash it to try to add more "goodness" to it. The soap itself doesn't really change does it? It just becomes coated with milk or oils? For the amount of work and cost, why not just make a mild bar of soap, followed by a good face cream?
 

IrishLass

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From all that I've read about the process or watched in videos, genuine 'French Milled' or 'Triple Milled' starts with soap made via hot process that has been salted out to remove any excess lye, as well as the glycerin and any other impurities. Then it is dried to remove much of the water via either spray dryers or vacuum dryers so that it has very low moisture (5% to 12% according to Wikepedia). Then it is formed into small pellets which get mixed with scent and other additives in an auger. From there it's forced through an extruder which smooshes the soap and sheers it off into thin sheets. Next the sheets go through 3 steel rollers which crush/press the sheets into even thinner paper-thin sheets which then get pushed through a vacuum plodder where they are then further pressed into long, uniform, rectangular logs which are then cut into smaller 'blanks'. The blanks are then pressed through a stamp to shape it into bars.

The resulting soap is very dry and smooth to the touch, extremely hard and dense, and has a very shiny/polished look to it. It also lasts for an extremely long time.

What we do with ours (rebatching) is obviously not the same thing as French Milled/Triple Milled.

The closest thing I've been able to locate (at least in the past half hour anyway) in regards to the process explained by Apples is a video put out by Good Earth Soaps (look up 'Lemon Love triple milled soap' on Youtube) where she seems to be making a batch of soap similar to the process, only she's grating it up and cooking it 3 different times (curing it in between each time, but I don't know for how long), and adding different butters/oils to it each time she grates it up and melts it down in her crockpot. She says that the soap's resulting lather feels like lotion. Seems like a lot of work when you can just make a batch of mild CP with a high superfat? :confused:


IrishLass :)
 

LisaAnne

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Irish lass, there is a woman on Facebook that loved to rebatch HP. She would sometimes rebatch a soap several times and said it was the best soap that got better with each process. I have no idea what she added though.
 

apples

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Just saw all the replies in page 2 (how could I missed the notification?)

Interesting info on French/ Triple Milled! Thanks!

I think this process is somewhat similar to French Milled as described by IrishLass and Lisa Anne, rolled and pressed, but in a simpler manner without the machines (just hand kneading/ using stone mortar and pestle).

I found an image that illustrates this process but since it's not mine, I'll just put a link: http://s6.sinaimg.cn/mw690/001LBgYBzy6OAMa14HP45&690

The picture in the middle is after kneaded.

I actually worked on it 2 days ago and I almost can't feel my right arm the next day, it's real tiring! Unlike flour, soap shreds are so hard even after soaking in liquid overnight. The consistency was like chunky peanut butter during the "kneading" process (sticks to everything). I used stone mortar and pestle.

Additives, I added honey, water, EO for the first mill (not sure if I'm willing for a second mill after this). It's still soft so I'll let it dry for few more days then test use a small piece.

Lenarenee, about additives, I've seen some with fresh soybean milk, honey, dried herbs...I'm still looking for answer. Some said they used fresh GM but I could've understood wrongly, I don't think fresh GM can survive the process.
 
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