Can you sub Palm shortening in place of palm oil?

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DaveTDG

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First off let me say I am trying to work out a recipe that I can buy most of the ingredients locally while factoring in cost. I can easily get Rice Brand Oil, Grapeseed Oil and of course Olive Oil. (NOTE: I bought a gallon of Rice Brand Oil at a feed store for $25.) I can also get 50 lbs of palm shortening for under $40! At that price I would really like to be able to use it. (NOTE: This and other oils I found at a locale cash n carry. Kinda a restaurant supply store.) This is used in deep frying. I did some looking and people have used it to replace palm oil. Might as well inject, I am guessing that palm oil and palm kernel oil are two drastically different oils? They show very different stats on the soapcalc. So more insight there would be great as well.

So I guess my question is. Anyone use palm shortening? Can I use it in place of the palm oil? Or palm kernel oil? It also says that you can use it in place of coconut oil. Which would be nice with coconut oil being like $7 for 30oz. But if I do that, will I be missing out on something good the coconut oil brings to a bar of soap? So any and all insight would be great. Also, soapcalc doesnt seem to have it on the list. Whats the lye conversion on it? Same as palm oil?

Here is my idea for my first recipe. Seeing how I can get Rice Brand, Olive and Grapeseed oils here locally, I am going to use equal portions (1/3) of each oil for my main base. The Rice and Grapeseed seem to bring the same medium levels to the soap while olive oil brings lower levels. But is the most cost effective. I also have shea butter (ordered off amazon) and currently coconut oil. (as per the question above, would like to supplement the palm shorting in place of the coconut oil if possible to bring cost way down). If I can use the palm shortening I am thinking equal portions of the 3 oils and the palm oil (1/4 for each) OR removing olive oil totally and going back to the 1/3 even if the other two oils are a bit more spendy.
Then that leaves me with the shea butter to add in. Maybe use this as my super fat?

Again, any input would be awesome!!! Thanks!
 

Arimara

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What's the makeup of the palm shortening? Is it a blend of palm and another oil?
 

cmzaha

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Yes you can use it in place of palm. I did some test to compare regular palm and palm shortening. They turn out identical in feel, how they soap and neither acquired dos. I always purchase the 50# blocks of palm shortening. The other nice factor is it is the same as the no stir that Soapers Choice sells. It is homogenized not hydrogenated. At least that is what my Smart & Final 100% Palm Shortening is. I would nix the grapeseed oil it tends to get dos. Palm oil and Palm Kernel do not sub for each other, they are completely different. Palm Kernel can replace coconut oil if you can get it for less than coconut oil, Palm Kernel oil is a cleansing oil like Babassu and Coconut. All contain higher amount of Myristic Acid and Lauric acid than other oils, which adds in cleansing value and Bubbles. Palm add hardness and longevity to your soaps like tallow and lard. Palm is often referred to as Palm Tallow
 
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DaveTDG

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I didnt buy the palm shortening yet. Just made note of it. Will hit the store and make sure its 100% and not a mix. Typically for deep frying though, they dont mix oils. Need the flavor or lack of and burn point to be the same on deep fry oils.
Now that I am about to start I am trying to calculate cost. The first few batches will be test batches but EVERYONE is getting goat milk soap for Christmas this year :)
 

KristaY

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Another thing Cmzaha brought up in her thread is the difference in sap value. Regular palm sap = 0.142, First Street Palm Shortening sap = 0.138. So if you get that brand and you use Soap Calc, enter "Crisco, new w/palm". That'll give you the correct lye calculation. I believe she said she contacted the manufacturer to get the sap value. Hopefully she'll come along to correct me if I mis-remembered. :)
 

IrishLass

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Hey Dave!

Re: palm shortening and palm oil.....as long as the ingredients on the palm shortening list palm as the sole ingredient (i.e., no other fats listed), then yes- you can sub it 1 for 1 with palm oil without needing to change the SAP value.

Re: palm kernel oil (pko). It's completely different oil from palm oil in spite of it being from the same tree. Palm oil comes from the flesh of the palm fruit, and palm kernel oil comes from the kernel of the palm fruit. They each produce different results in soap and cannot be subbed for each other. Palm oil behaves much like beef tallow and/or lard in soap, producing hard, white bars with medium cleansing and low bubbly-lathering abilities, and although palm kernel oil will also produce hard, white bars, they will be highly cleansing and will be super bubbly in the lather department in comparison to palm oil.

Re: coconut oil: in soap, it produces results that are in the same league as those of palm kernel oil (hard, super bubbly, super cleansing bars) and can be subbed in its place (not palm oil's place), but you'll have to adjust for their different SAP #'s. Also- although CO and PKO produce similar qualities to each other in soap- there are a few minor differences between them: coconut oil produces bars that are more soluble and slightly more cleansing and bubbly than palm kernel oil.

Re: your first recipe: I would highly suggest a different plan. Using 1/3 each of olive, grapeseed and rice bran oils is a sure recipe for DOS (dreaded orange spots, i.e., rancidity). That's because of the high linoleic acid content present in both grapeseed and rice bran oil, which is less stable compared to the high amount of the more stable oleic acid content of olive oil. Not to mention the recipe will produce a soap on the softer side of things with lather you might not like, although it might feel pretty good on the skin.


IrishLass :)
 

Susie

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Do you have anything against using animal fats? If not, lard is about the cheapest oil I can buy to soap with and it makes wonderfully creamy rich lather that is very skin friendly. You may want to price it out.

(Come on, y'all knew I was going to bring it up!)
 

DaveTDG

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Thank you so much for all that input! Makes total sense all around. I like the properties of the coconut oil or the palm kernel oil. As I am looking for PKO I am seeing that the flakes are a bit cheaper. Any suggestion on which to use? The oil or the flakes? They look roughly the same on the calc. but much cheaper. Lowest I see on amazon is $21 for 9 lbs. For that price Im in! :)

I tried a 2 lb batch of the above recipe (no scent with ground oatmeal. Nearly hunting season and have a bunch of friends wanting it so the 12 bars plus a little extra I got will go fast). Not to hopeful for the soap but wanted to go through the route and see my first trace. Found a few things I am going to change with my equipment. Hand wand has 2 speeds and both seem way to fast. I used wide big SS bowls (cookie bowls) and didnt much care for that. With a small batch, was hard keeping the end of the wand in the liquid. Concerning while doing the goat milk and lye mixing. But the mix worked out great. Just used nearly frozen milk with ice chunks in it and it never got above 116. Higher then I liked but came down pretty quick in temp as I had the bowl in some ice water. Going to change out my mixing containers for ones that have spouts so I can pour the oils into the milk/lye and then then the trace into the modes easier.

Figure to order the PKO flakes and come up with a new recipe that only uses one of the high linoleic acid oils. I have some coconut oil I can use till the PKO arrives. Anyone have a good recipe to use the following:
Olive Oil
Rice Brand or Grapeseed oil
Coconut Oil
Shea butter.
Almonde essential oil

Would like to add a bit of honey to this recipe as well if it would be ok. Thanks!
 

DaveTDG

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Do you have anything against using animal fats? If not, lard is about the cheapest oil I can buy to soap with and it makes wonderfully creamy rich lather that is very skin friendly. You may want to price it out.

(Come on, y'all knew I was going to bring it up!)
Nope dont have any concern about using animal fats myself. Even made a joke about making bacon soap! :) Though its not an ingredient that went over very well with the family. If I could get my hands on some bear fat!..
 

Susie

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Sugar/honey adds lovely bubbles to soap. Honey is more expensive than sugar, and it seems to heat worse to me. Not that it stops me from using it, but I have to babysit it to prevent volcano. If you are going to use goat's milk, I would avoid sugar and honey as you do not want that goat's milk heated more than necessary.

Lard/tallow/palm all fill the same slot in soap recipes They make very different soaps, however. Tallow gives a hard white bar with big bubbles. Lard makes creamy, rich, dense lather with very small bubbles. Palm gives hard white bars that I am not fond of. Blending lard and tallow makes a wonderful bar that has both big bubbles and rich creamy lather, and if I could buy rendered tallow cheaper, I would be making the blends.
 

DaveTDG

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Can buy beef fat from the butcher for like $1 a lb. Then render it yourself. Not a great way to spend the day and I think Id do it outside unless you have a great fan over your stove. Cant stand cooking fat smells or stock.
 

cmzaha

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Another thing Cmzaha brought up in her thread is the difference in sap value. Regular palm sap = 0.142, First Street Palm Shortening sap = 0.138. So if you get that brand and you use Soap Calc, enter "Crisco, new w/palm". That'll give you the correct lye calculation. I believe she said she contacted the manufacturer to get the sap value. Hopefully she'll come along to correct me if I mis-remembered. :)
You are very correct Krista, It took me several tries to get an answer but I finally did. I am just now finishing up a 35 lb bucket of Palm and will not purchase it again. LOL, I used to use palm shortening with palm until the dummy me discovered they are the same sinceSoap calc does not show the same values for Crisco with palm. I decided to run test batches with no color or fo, in which I noticed the feel, longevity, hardness and no dos issue the same. :) In the beginning of my soaping career, because soapcalc listed values so differently I would use it with palm, no wonder my soapies would last a long time. I still use the" Crisco with Palm" setting and it works for me. Soapers Choice shows the SAP for their Homogenized no Stir Palm at .144 NaOH.
 

Susie

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Can buy beef fat from the butcher for like $1 a lb. Then render it yourself. Not a great way to spend the day and I think Id do it outside unless you have a great fan over your stove. Cant stand cooking fat smells or stock.
I have done so. It took me 3 days of rendering to get it done. And it was not convenient in any way. The cleanup was tremendous.
 

DaveTDG

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Went out and picked up a few things but did some price checking. Turns out I way over paid for the rice brand oil. Found it at the cash and carry (restaurant supply store) for $10 for a gallon. Also found coconut oil in a 3 gallon buck for $70. So looks like I will end up being able to use cocanut oil after all :)
 

green soap

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Dave, welcome to the forum.

I agree with IL and recommend against using grape seed oil in soap (or any B&B product). Keep it in the fridge and just use it in food. Rancid (DOS) soap is no fun.

I find that this combo produces a beautiful soap:

Olive oil 30%
Rice bran oil 30%
coconut oil 30%
shea butter 10%

Good luck with your soaping. Smart of you to ask questions before buying supplies.

Make sure to post pictures!
 

DaveTDG

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Dave, welcome to the forum.

I agree with IL and recommend against using grape seed oil in soap (or any B&B product). Keep it in the fridge and just use it in food. Rancid (DOS) soap is no fun.

I find that this combo produces a beautiful soap:

Olive oil 30%
Rice bran oil 30%
coconut oil 30%
shea butter 10%

Good luck with your soaping. Smart of you to ask questions before buying supplies.

Make sure to post pictures!
Thanks so much! Seeing how I can buy 3 of those locale, that looks like a good recipe for me to be using.
 

DaveTDG

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Did a 2 pound batch with cinnamon sugar fragrance. Wow they werent kidding when they say it thicken quick. Had to smooth the top of the molds. But all looks good. Milk didnt get over 116. Am guessing it will darken as it cures. Thanks again everyone for your insight and help!
 

BrewerGeorge

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A very good soap that can be made from items you can find at Walmart is:

30% Great Value Shortening (not the 100% vegetable one) It's a mix of both tallow and palm
30% Lard
20% Olive oil
20% Coconut oil
5% superfat

Supplement with both table sugar and salt at a rate of 1 teaspoon per pound of oils. (Dissolve both in water before adding the lye.) Try to encourage it to gel in the mold if possible.

This makes an excellent general-purpose soap that shouldn't be too cleansing for most people's skin. Nice hard bar that is still forgiving to work with as far as trace, pouring, and cutting. I haven't seen any DOS yet, and have bars of it that are nearly a year old now still hanging around. This is essentially my default, everyday recipe, though I fortify it a bit with small amounts of avocado and castor oils. As written, it's a good place to start.
 

fuzz-juzz

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In short: yes!

I've been using palm shortening as palm oil for years.

Reason: pure convenience, and no shipping added to the cost. It was emergency source of palm oil.

I have to say, now I only use sustainable one. If that makes any difference... hopefully it does.
 

soapgirltami

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I've often used Palm shortening when I needed it quickly. Mine was 100% palm oil. No notable problems or difference
 

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