Butters/Exotics/Additives in CP soap - what works vs what doesn't?

[navigator9]

What is a "butter" ?

What is the difference between a "butter" and an "oil", from a soapmaking point of view ?

I'm guessing that "shea butter" and "cocoa butter" fall in the "butter" category.

Solid at room temperature. Also, sometimes called hard oils.

 

[Chefmom]

If it were as easy as a simple answer every single one of us would make the same recipe...with no other additions, the same system etc. There would be only one soap recipe deemed the ONLY one ever needed. It isn't that easy.

Everyone has their own preferences based on their own opinions and what works on their skin. I can give out my perfected recipe and say there....you don't need to test at all, here is perfection. It only took me countless hours of reading, finding the most economical way to purchase ingredients and hundreds of pounds of oils over the past 15 years to perfect my recipe. My family used a different soap almost every shower and had to endure me drilling them about how they liked it. I have given away pounds of soap and then done the same to friends and acquaintances. Then I went back and reformulated recipes etc.

What works for me might not work for you. The formula that I turn to time and again might be one that you don't like. You will never know until you make soap and try it for yourself.

Side by side I prefer avocado oil over almond...my daughter prefers almond over avocado. The one superfat that stands out the most, and to me is the most worth paying to ship in, is cocoa butter. Shea butter doesn't stand out the same in the final product...so I am willing to go the extra step with cocoa butter. I only know that because I have tested side by side and determined their worth.

The same with superfat ratios in formulas. One person may only use a 3%, I regularly go as high as 20% in my winter soap because my skin overall needs an extra something in the winter months. It is easier to use a good soap than to try to slather lotion everywhere after every shower.

The best way to determine with the most frugal test is to make one very large batch of hot processed soap, divide up the batter into small batches and then add a small amount of each oil/fat/butter to each portion. Molds can be simple and small and then cure the same and test them side by side to determine the differences or lack there of. In the end you are only out one batch of soap and may find your favorite addition, the one you are willing to go the extra steps for or pay the extra shipping fees. The ones you hate you can always chop up and add to other batches to use them up....good soap needs never be thrown away.

Good Luck!

 

[Nikko]

RESPONSE 1 of 3
p { margin-bottom: 0.25cm; line-height: 120%; } Wow, I post my lil thread up before I went to bed down under here last night and expecting a few responses I check and there's 3 pages full! And absolutely wonderful ones, so thank you everyone for your contribution and hard found personal opinions. This latter one being very important to me as whilst I know soap making is VERY subjective and YMMV etc I was very happy to get generalised feedback from people based on what they think is best for the majority of average users.

I will try to respond, wherever appropriate to the many responses:

I'm afraid that it's not a case of "it seems that you really can't ....." when it comes to selectively superfatting cp - it is a fact, proven by Dr Kevin Dunn. So, if you do use exotics in cp, add them when it is easiest for you to do so as it will make no difference at all.

This is exactly what I suspected and alluded to. I'm in NO WAY saying you're incorrect on when's best to add them - but if using CP you added at the last possible moment e.g heavy trace - I'd have thought that some of the saponification process had already occurred so it'd be marginally more likely that the last oil added wouldn't be saponified 'as much'......but I'm guessing that the vast majority of the saponification for CP actually occurs post-trace and so you'd be 100% correct in saying it really makes no difference at all (e.g statistically insignificant ~0%).

Well that fact alone makes me think that unless the oil/butter has a high % of unsaponifiables that it's hard to get full 'value' from the expensive oils in CP vs. some of the more cost effective ones.

As to whether or not butters make a tangible benefit (specifically not just a difference, as a difference can also be something negative!) some people try it and say yes, others say that they really can't feel any difference between a soap with butters and one with , as an example, lard instead.

I understood this and agree, hence I was just curious in what people's specific personal opinions were. I didn't think there was a golden rule/formula etc that I could just replicate like a custom soap made for my needs but rather by getting the specific thoughts of such a well versed group you'd get an overall pattern/consensus on whats the 'smart money/probable' path of least resistance or likely best results. Haha thats the plan anyway......the great thing is you get all opinions, the best of them often supported with facts arguments etc and it makes (IMHO) for very compelling and interesting readings that in itself can somewhat replicate hundreds of hours of testings.

But as has been said, maybe have a play with a small batch and see if you or your family feel a benefit from it and if that benefit is worth the extra expense.

As I said earlier, I'm just not in a position to do this. There's many reasons for this - but one of the main ones is that I live in regional Australia and the cost/availability of many of these exotics oils etc is relatively high and a PITA to get. So if I went off on the 'slippery path' of trialling all manner of ingredients I could see me a year later having spent a bunch of $, countless batches of soap (albeit small) and not that much closer to my actual goal - which was just to find a reasonably good formula soap.

And to be fair I've probably even with the most basic CP recipe already done that - especially compared to the horrible Supermarket/mass produced gunk I've used for the past 40yrs. So I guess I'm trying to balance not turning it into some kind of a 'Holy Grail' search - but also am trying to be open minded to adding a few more better ingredients IF they add marginal value/benefits to the end soap.

My theory going in is that as with the vast majority of products there's a pretty early fall off in the diminishing marginal real benefits of many of the pricier ingredients when used in CP soaps. What I've read from the excellent responses in this thread have further confirmed this theory.

My favorite oil is Avocado and use it in both soap and leave on products. I usually do not add in butters to my soaps except to a few for label appeal. I just do not notice any great difference with butters versus avocado oil. Lard, tallow, palm, canola and sunflower are also favorites of mine for soap. I love the feel of canola versus olive oil which I do not use a lot of. I always add roe into my canola oil to lengthen the shelf life. Oatmeal, clays, charcoal and milks are also favorites. Milk more for label appeal, I really do not notice a difference other than lather when using distilled water instead of milks. Soaps made with Distilled Water and Sugar give the best lather in my opinion. I do use Aloe but only fresh cleaned aloe not the thin juice found by the gallon. I also add in avocado puree into all avocado soaps, it makes a nice creamy soap.

I really thought this was an excellent post - so thank you for it. FWIW I think the 'label appeal' effect is very real and flows onto people even when they're aware of it and making the product for themselves. Perception is incredibly powerful but posts like yours make it much easier to try and wade through.

RE: Canola Oil - I'd read a lot of positive things on the benefits in soap of this rather maligned oil however the vast majority of them were caveated by users stating in no uncertain terms to AVOID/DO NOT USE due to D.O.S concerns.

I know using ROE can assist - however it's really hard and pricey to get here. I happen to have a large amount of Rosemary EO - don't know if its simplistic to think that it might have a similar benefit if used to scent a Canola oil containing soap?

People who use Canola do seem to really rate it - however the DOS feedback seems very strong and I suppose I'd want to feel very sure I could offset that and that there was a significant marginal benefit of Canola over OO/RBO to make it worth 'risking' in any soaps - as if it was much of a muchness it's only slight benefit would be being around 20-30% cheaper than OO/RBO, which are both cheap here so not a big draw.

I make sure to use distilled water in all my 3 batches so far - clay in all of them - and colloidal oatmeal in the last 2.

I also made a batch last night and substituted 50% of the water for fresh aloe vera - which seemed to go very well. Haha so I do draw great solace from your post, as it's thankfully reinforcing a lot of what I've luckily already tried to adopt.

I am a fan of avocado, almond and sunflower oils .

Thanks Jules, seems to be a consistent good line of feedback on Avocado related products and thats EXACTLY the type of pattern I was hoping to try and identify.

I love mango, I like the 'dryness' of it compared to (to my skin) the relative greasiness of shea. I have lots of exotic oils,

Thanks Reinbeau, I do get the feel from this and other threads that Shea Butter is a tad 'hyped' in CP soaps - I will keep an eye on Mango butter, thank you.

As seawolfe said exotic oil and butter you can put as sf for your HP. Like hemp butter or St John worts oil I put them as superfat for my hot process. But not often I used this because of the prices.

Thanks Biarine, I'd definitely like to try HP in the future as based on the limited info I have it really takes the options/customising of a soap's benefits to be taken that much further. Definitely something I'd like to try this year.

 

[Nikko]

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In my opinion: Jojoba oil, meadowfoam oil, camellia oil, etc. Basically most of the more expensive oils are best saved for other products.

Hmlove, excellent post! Really great stuff in it.

It all depends on personal preference. I would not use 3 butters in a recipe because you would have to keep the percentages so low that it wouldn't even be worth adding them (butters inhibit lather).

I should clarify by listing 3-4 butters I didn't mean to imply one would use them all in a given recipe rather than you could have used one of ANY of them - sorry for confusion but your point is an good one.

Some people really like avocado, some people say they don't even notice a difference. I haven't noticed much of a difference, but I haven't gotten around to comparing the same recipe with and without it. Some people think avocado is just a more expensive olive oil as the two can be used interchangeably most of the time.

Haha yes well you see if a pro like you has never gotten around to trialling a relatively mainstream oil like AVO then I've no chance at all!

AVO is pretty expensive here and how much better it would be than a OO Pomace (which also has a high level of unsaponifiables) is hard to say.

I haven't found anything that I prefer over mango butter. And if you know where to look (and are willing to buy a couple of pounds) you can get it at a pretty good price.

I'm a sucker for bulk buys/diminishing marginal costs so please don't encourage me or I'll end up buying waaaaaay too much - assuming the Mango butter lobby ends up topping the AVO/Cocoa Butter one (do think the latter might be a dark horse!).

The best way to ensure a noticeable difference is to use at least 5% of the oil/butter in your recipe. Anything less just isn't worth it IMO.

Agree, I've made sure to stick to this as a guideline.

Clay provides slip to the lather. It's often used in shave soaps, but can add a nice touch to non-shave soaps as well. Many use them for a natural colorant.

I figure there's very little downside to using them in relatively modest amounts (~1tbs per lb of oil seemed to be the feedback given). I literally just had the postie drop off 1kg of green clay and 1kg of kaolin clay I ordered from Portugal - under $AUD20 delivered - for such prices I think even a very, very small benefit is easily cost effective.

Many say good things about oatmeal. I don't know if it actually makes a gentler bar, but it adds a gentle exfoliation if added directly to the soap. If used to make oatmilk, it provides a very creamy lather IMO.

Colloidal oatmeal is did have overwhelming feedback to say it really did work - even in the very short time the soap is actually on one's skin and as with the clay its so cost effective it seemed very sensible to almost include in every batch. I used at around 3-5%.

I don't know if aloe vera gel or juice actually adds anything to the soap, but it's a fun alternative to full water, as are most liquids.

I was amazed by reading up on it that mainstream medicine is very much indeterminate on whether Aloe has any benefits at all - but having a lot of it in my garden and tending to think there's some truth to it as a topical application I used it to replace 50% of my water. Pretty straight forward to use and saved me having to put 2tbs of sugar in, so win-win.

Hope this helps!

It certainly all did - so thank you ever so much!

Another vote for Avocado Oil, I love it in soap as well as other products. I also use Shea and Cocoa Butter. I love buttermilk, beer and coconut milk as well. It's certainly a personal preference. I use the more expensive oils (Argan, Meadowfoam & Jojoba) for leave on products

Great little compact post - and yes another for AVO. I do have giving a milk a try - just a little scared of the extra heat they generate but it's definitely on that next level of skill/recipe sophistication I'm aiming to try. Great point on those $$$ items!

I tend to use almond, sunflower or rice bran at 10% in every batch. I will also use one of those in combination with a mango, shea or cocoa butter.
While I would probably not be able to tell which oil or butter is in a particular soap in the shower - over time I can tell the difference if I'm using one with those ingredients added or just a bar of OO/Palm/CO. My skin seems to like these "exotics" better. I will say that I LOVE beer used in my lye water.
That said, I doubt I'd ever use really expensive oils like kukui, emu, EPO or even rosehip in a soap because I think the expense outweighs the benefit.

Thats a great post. Ouch....I think that only seeing one of those horrible 'funny' videos of my various brethern being hit in the groin by all manner of objects can possibly make a man wince as much as the thought of good beer going into a lye solution!

But perhaps its a good option for a future home brew (another hobby I hope to start in the years ahead) that goes pearshaped!

I've been making soap for 8 or 9 years now, and every batch is a learning experience. What Seawolfe mentioned is true. Most beginning soapers see all of the possibilities laid out before them, ingredients, techniques, etc. and they want to try them all. This is actually a good thing, because this experimentation allows you to narrow your focus eventually on the techniques and ingredients that work best for you. After many batches, hopefully you'll find a few standard recipes that you can't do without.

Hmmm well fantastic post/s but I dunno I think there's just an overwhelming amount of choice and one could easily get too confused by this alone. I've theorised that the 'best'(obviously massively open to personal interpretation) CP recipe is something not too far off the basic classic 3 oil, CO/PO-Tallow-Lard/OO one anyway at this point thats been my starting assumption and I'm trying to very slightly refine it from there.

I'm one of those who have tried many different ingredients along the way, botanicals, exotic oils, magical bark from Mexico, (yes really), infused oils, clays, silk etc. and found that for me, at least, it's more about proportion and balance. After trying all the different things out there, my basic bar consists of olive, palm and coconut. But I took that recipe and tweaked it endlessly, until I had it juuuust right.

Well I tell you what I am all ears, any hints on what you feel was about right?

I have found some "extras" that I do love in soaps. Oatmeal is one of them. I grind it to a fine powder, and leave some more course, for a little scrubbiness. Milks of all kinds are also nice. I do use avocado oil in my facial bars after doing a blind test with friends and co-workers, who loved the avocado. I've found blind tests a very valuable tool. Users who don't know what's in the samples can't be swayed by label appeal, and can only judge by what they experience. So yes, I do feel that a great bar of soap can be made without a lot of "fancy" ingredients, and my customers agree. And no, I don't think it matters when you add different ingredients, the lye will take what it takes. My experience comes from CP, it's all I do, and all I can speak for.

Another for AVO. And another for Oatmeal (which I think is an absolute lock in, no brainer). You do make some excellent points.

 

[Nikko]

RESPONSE 3 of 3 (phew! )
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I went through a phase where I kept trying expensive butters and oils. Truthfully, I don't think they are worth it in soap. The butters did make the lather a little creamier (IMO) but then they inhibit bubbly lather.

I have settled on lard/tallow, olive, castor, and coconut for the majority of my batches. I think lard/tallow adds a nice creaminess to lather. I do use goats milk or coconut milk in my low coconut batches because I like the extra bubbles that I feel they bring to the soap.

I think the best thing to do is find a combo of base oils that make a soap you like. Then switch out 10% of one of those oils in exchange for a butter or oil that you want to try. Just make sure you take the 10% from the same oil every time.

Again another excellent post (I really did get very lucky with such brilliant responses!) - your base formulation is very close to what I'm using and I think your end point about getting a base forumula that you know works well and just tweaking it slightly with say 10-15% of it is a very sound idea and again thats what I've tried to do - albeit in only 3 batches so far.

I am going to have to read up about 'milks' - goats milk has been a MAJOR label draw here for the last few yrs but I suspect it's going to find it hard to justify it's extra cost over other milks. And then are milks better for just the sugars they bring or other components......well that'll all be something to read up on later.

I think tallow/lard are absolute must haves in any CP soap and alas have had a negative label effect put on them for many years - but they are such a solid start for any recipe and incredibly cost effective too. Anyway I won't be moving away from them anytime soon, though obviously respect others who avoid due to ethical/moral preferences.

But a lot of people seem to feel that animal fats clog pores/are heavy/nasty etc and such misinformation is very widely held by the general public. Go figure.

I use a very basic recipe and have not noticed a positive difference to my skin in adding butters or exotic oils. Same with my soap testers, they always come back to the basic recipe being the nicest on their skin. Where I do notice a difference when I add Avocado, sweet almond, cocoa Butter, or Shea butter (those are the "extras" I normally add to my basic recipes) is in the texture of the bar itself. They make the bar look and feel smoother, slicker and sometimes harder and so that's really why I add them in.. Usually at 10 percent. I also like to substitute part of my coconut oil with Palm kernel oil for those same reasons.

Well thats very interesting feedback - essentially saying a good basic recipe is key, which I think is bang on - but that the really luxury stuff has the biggest effect on the soap itself's texture. Very interesting. Thank you for sharing this as it's thought provoking.

Basic with a couple additives.

I'm loving this common theme.

Nikko- do yourself a HUGE favor. Keep one bar of each of your starter recipes. When you go to try the "exotics", substitute one in per batch. Then test it against your base recipes at an appropriate cure time. Then you will know for yourself.

I tried all the exotic oils and decided I love my lard soap best. YMMV

Thanks Susie, this is excellent advise - I'm determined to wait the full 6 weeks to use any of the soaps (which is SO painful for a newbie but I feel it's the best way to allow the soap to be fully seen for it's qualities and so a small price to pay).

Hmmm tallow is a tad easier to get here - I think I might have to try and find a lard source as folks here seem to think it has the marginal edge on tallow.

Given the amount of soap that is actually used on the skin and for the short period of time it is actually in contact, I believe there's a lot of "Emperor's New Clothes" impressions on some of these low percentage, expensive additions. I've been soaping just about a year now so that that for what it's worth - but sometimes it just takes that one voice calling out to people to realize they've been misled. Or maybe I have the skin of a range Buffalo. Who knows.

I have to say this was an absolutely standout post for me and I'm sorry to only quote a small part of it as it was incredibly well written and superbly structured so as to provide a logical and compelling matter for consideration.

I really enjoy the way you think and look forward to reading more of your posts. Thanks for sharing.

I like combination of Avocado oil, OO, CO and lard/tallow. Sometimes I add cocoa butter at 7% or so, it does give a luxury feeling to the skin. I always add sodium lactate, and lately CA . Every soap I make is used by us, and my friends. so far so good. Many excellent ideas I got here, of course. When you check the forum regularly you collect so much knowledge, you must make some notes

) Good luck Nikko with awesome soap, you are going to make very soon

Hi Dahila, yes I think we're on the same page with ingredients and you're another for AVO as well.

I've not read up on CL - however I'm unsure on what CA is?

I've made sure to take pretty thorough notes of every batch so far and yes you're right the most valuable 'ingredient' of all is a membership of SMF!

If it were as easy as a simple answer every single one of us would make the same recipe...with no other additions, the same system etc. There would be only one soap recipe deemed the ONLY one ever needed. It isn't that easy.

Wonderful post - thank you ever so much for sharing - I've actually really enjoyed some of your posts I've seen in other thread so appreciate you posting here.

Yes, you're right but I did try and imply that I knew there wasn't a definitive 'best' for all and as such I was just after the feedback of what other had found best for them and then I'd use this to try and go with the most common feedback found through these....which I think I've been able to do and as such I'm very happy with the wonderful feedback received.

Everyone has their own preferences based on their own opinions and what works on their skin. I can give out my perfected recipe and say there....you don't need to test at all, here is perfection. It only took me countless hours of reading, finding the most economical way to purchase ingredients and hundreds of pounds of oils over the past 15 years to perfect my recipe. My family used a different soap almost every shower and had to endure me drilling them about how they liked it. I have given away pounds of soap and then done the same to friends and acquaintances. Then I went back and reformulated recipes etc.

Haha well I'm absolutely open to any recipe and would always approach it with a YMMV outlook - so if you have posted it up I'd love to see what you found.

Side by side I prefer avocado oil over almond...my daughter prefers almond over avocado. The one superfat that stands out the most, and to me is the most worth paying to ship in, is cocoa butter. Shea butter doesn't stand out the same in the final product...so I am willing to go the extra step with cocoa butter. I only know that because I have tested side by side and determined their worth.

Yes, I did see where you had posted this and I found this fascinating and your post singlehandedly made me cool on ShB and look at CoB as being a better choice (though the mango lobby was pretty strong in this thread). You're another AVO lover, which does align with the feedback in here - I'm assuming you were using HP and not CP?

Thanks again for a great post - I appreciate your generosity in sharing it.

Thanks again to everyone's feedback - I'm blown away and hope others are getting as much from this info as me!:clap:

 

[Dahila]

Sodium lactate ; SL
Citric Acid : CA
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=51841
This is very useful thread, worth to go though it)

 

[fuzz-juzz]

I really like avocado oil, rice bran oil, coconut milk and oatmeal. I use almond oil and shea butter, but I'm starting to think they don't add much to the soap, especially if used only at 5% or so. I haven't used canola but was looking into it recently, maybe do a smaller batch to see how it will turn out and how quickly will it get DOS.
I like lard, but only in facial bars as we like bubbly body soap. While lard is nice, it's creamy and gentle.
And good luck finding some, supermarkets stopped stocking it. My mum has a butcher that sells pig fat and she renders it for us, we use it in cooking as well. It's really irreplaceable in pastries and baked potatoes etc., but after do much negative publicity, supermarkets decided to pull of the shelves. It's stupid and makes no sense... While for example nobody's banning sale of fried chips, it's dripping in fat but it's made with "healthy" canola oil hey?

 

[Seawolfe]

Honestly, if you can't get the "exotics" I wouldn't worry about it. A well made bar of soap that is a comfort and a joy to use can be made with the simplest of ingredients. I smile every time I use my true Castile. I'm spoiled because almost anything is available where I live, but I've learned it's more about balance and technique than fancy ingredients.

Just wondering, can you get lanolin where you are?

 

[Nikko]

@Dahila, thanks for that - will look over the thread. As chance would have it I have several packets of CA in my cupboard.

I like lard, but only in facial bars as we like bubbly body soap. While lard is nice, it's creamy and gentle.
And good luck finding some, supermarkets stopped stocking it. My mum has a butcher that sells pig fat and she renders it for us, we use it in cooking as well. It's really irreplaceable in pastries and baked potatoes etc., but after do much negative publicity, supermarkets decided to pull of the shelves. It's stupid and makes no sense... While for example nobody's banning sale of fried chips, it's dripping in fat but it's made with "healthy" canola oil hey?

Well as you're a fellow Antipodean I can advise I'm pretty sure Coles still stocks Lard, but it's sold as solid cooking oil or something like that - IIRC I checked the ingredients on one (I believe it was in a small plastic tub and it stated lard. All that said it seems there's very little between lard and tallow - so if it's too tricky to locate I'll just stick with the Bovine extracted one...but I would like to give Lard a go.

Just wondering, can you get lanolin where you are?

Oh probably can but it'd be the same type of difficulty in getting the other butters etc - I've used several lanolin containing shaving soaps but am wary as I've heard its a bit of a lather killer and also can cause issues in some folks skin. But it's definitely one I'll also consider so thanks for the tip.

 

[fuzz-juzz]

I'm not 100% sure but I think one one in the tub is just beef fat or if there's lard in it, it's probably mixed with other animal fats.
Here's how real lard looked like, it was always next to Copha and Supafry.

This explains why it disappeared from shelves. http://www.yorkfoods.com.au/in-the-supermarket

You can get it directly from them but it's really pricey, like gold lol. http://www.yorkfoods.com.au/shop/lard-200g

Or try your local IGA. I tried with mine and while they were willing to supply some, they couldn't source any from whole suppliers.