Bubbly% on SoapCalc!

[DeeAnna]

Hardness is a measure of "hard like a brick". It is the sum of the percentages of myristic, lauric, palmitic, and stearic acids in your soap. Myristic and lauric come from coconut oil, palm kernel, babassu, etc. Palmitic and stearic come from lard, tallow, palm, etc.

Hardness is not the only thing to worry about if you want a long lasting soap. Water solubility is the other problem to consider. Soaps made from coconut and palm kernel are hard soaps, but they are very soluble. These soaps melt away quickly, so they clean well in hard or cold water and make lots of bubbles. Soaps high in palmitic and stearic acids are hard and fairly insoluble, so these soaps have a reputation for being long lasting. The downside of these soaps is that they don't make the abundant lather that many people like. Soaps made from the liquid oils (olive, rice bran, safflower, sunflower, etc.) tend to be less soluble than palm, tallow, and lard soaps. They clean the best in warm or hot water, and not so well in cold water. These soaps are soft, however, so they wear away quickly on the washcloth.

If you want a long lasting soap, you will want to make a soap that is ideally "hard like a brick" and fairly insoluble in water. Soapcalc does not calculate a "long lasting" number, but if you subtract the "cleansing" number from the "hardness" number, the answer will be the percentage of palmitic and stearic acids in your soap. The higher this number, the harder and more insoluble the soap will be. A soap with a high "long lasting" number will pay a price in less lather, so that's something to keep in mind.

I'm not sure if I have answered your question, Twiggy -- it has been a long day and I think I'm tired enough I'm rambling. I guess there is no one right answer to how much hardness (or insolubility) one should have in a soap. It depends on the soap maker.

 

[Cherry Pit Soap Works]

Hi Twiggy! I do add salt to my lye solution even with sodium lactate and sugar, I love the results! I add about 3 teaspoon of salts and my batches are about 52 ounces of oils. I'm kind of an "additive freak". With my recipe's I've found that a lot of additives makes some awesome soap. Try it and message me and tell me what you think!

 

[Cherry Pit Soap Works]

DeeAnna, holy crap you know a lot! Write a book already please!!!

 

[lsg]

Too much Castor oil will make a soft, sticky bar. I wouldn't go over 8%, I regularly use 5%, which does well for me.

 

[kazmi]

Hi Twiggy! I do add salt to my lye solution even with sodium lactate and sugar, I love the results! I add about 3 teaspoon of salts and my batches are about 52 ounces of oils. I'm kind of an "additive freak". With my recipe's I've found that a lot of additives makes some awesome soap. Try it and message me and tell me what you think!

I just purchased some sodium lactate to try out for a mold that I struggle with getting my soap out off. Any tips, tricks, etc that you can share with me so I don't mess up my first attempt too badly? TIA!!!

 

[lsg]

Don't go over 3%. The last soap I made using SL traced very quickly.

 

[Cherry Pit Soap Works]

Hi Kazmi! I use Sodium lactate at 4% ppo. That is definitely my favorite amount and I usually stick with that. lsg is right though, if you are using oils/recipe that traces quickly DO NOT discount your water amount and don't go over 3%. I tend to use oils that give me "play" time, but not a ridiculous amount either. I also find that adding the salt to my lye solution helps with the hardness too and it makes unmolding much easier. I add the SL directly to my lye solution after it's pretty much cooled down. I add the salt before the lye so it all dissolves easily. Let me know how it goes!

 

[Twiggy]

DeeAnna, Cherry, you are both Angels! thank you!
DeeAnna, you answer my question like no one else ever did! that's great place to start to work on my hardness and long lasting properties!
So just to make sure I've understood all you said and my thinking is right:
Long lasting numbers has for example
- cocoa butter : Palmitic: 28 Stearic: 33 = 61
- cupuacu butter: Palmitic: 8 Stearic: 34 = 42
- Illipe Butter: Palmitic: 17 Stearic: 45 = 62
- kokum butter: Palmitic: 4 Stearic: 56 = 60
- Kpangnan Butter: Palmitic: 6 Stearic: 44 = 50
- Shea Butter: Palmitic: 5 Stearic: 40 = 45
I know that's probably doesn't work that way, but I'm just trying figure it out if I'm on the right way here Most of my new recipes have Palmitic + Stearic around 27 - that's the best I could do with the oils I'm using for now.
I don't really care for lather if I need to be completely honest, will add a sugar to boost it and that's all! I'll leave it as it is. Is nice where is there but more important for me is conditioning and long lasting bar.



Cherri, so today is the salt day! I have to try it immediately! I should use normal table salt or Epson salt? The SL i also use on 3% - that number works for me.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...Long lasting numbers has for example ...."

Yes, you are exactly correct for the individual oils.

For a soap recipe with several oils, you would need to do a "weighted average" to find the overall "long lasting" number for your recipe. Or use SoapCalc and do this simpler calculation with "the numbers" in SoapCalc:

Long lasting = Hardness - Cleansing

Do not use epsom salt -- it will mess up your soap. Use everyday table salt, kosher salt, canning salt, or sea salt. Fine grain if you don't want it to be scratchy. Coarse grain if you do.

 

[Twiggy]

"...Long lasting numbers has for example ...."

Yes, you are exactly correct for the individual oils.

For a soap recipe with several oils, you would need to do a "weighted average" to find the overall "long lasting" number for your recipe. Or use SoapCalc and do this simpler calculation with "the numbers" in SoapCalc:

Long lasting = Hardness - Cleansing

Do not use epsom salt -- it will mess up your soap. Use everyday table salt, kosher salt, canning salt, or sea salt. Fine grain if you don't want it to be scratchy. Coarse grain if you do.

That is brilliant! Thank you, thank you so much! So it looks like cocoa butter soap will last forever LOL That is sooooo interesting!! I was just playing with the soapcalc, and is amazing, how much you can read out that number - if you understand them! DeeAnna, you are a chemist by any chance? You knowledge about it is amazing; I fell like 2 years old talking to you about soap!

What do you think, is number 27 good enough for a soap to be consider as "good", or you would recommend much higher numbers?

About the salt ? shame I got 2 kg in a cellar and don?t know what to do with it? hehehe

Thank you once again!!

EDIT: A ’propos hardness and SL, I just heard that SL helps with the hardness at the very begging, so the soap is ready to unmold faster and easier, but the end product stays the same as without SL. Does anyone knows anything about that?

 

[Cherry Pit Soap Works]

Hi again Twiggy! DeeAnna is right again! No epsom salt, just normal table salt! Use epsom in your bath salts I haven't noticed that with the sodium lactate. My bars stay rock hard and I also like the texture that it gives them. But I use some hard oils too, so that has a lot to do with it! I use cocoa butter in my soap. In fact, I won't soap without it! It makes amazing bars!

 

[Twiggy]

Hi Cherry! The problem is I have no bathtub LOL When we redecorated our bathroom we decided go for shower instead, heh what to do with that salt now hahahaha
I use a LOT of cocoa butter as well – and love it!

 

[DeeAnna]

"...DeeAnna, you are a chemist by any chance?..."

Um, no, not really. At least most "real" chemists would not think so. I was trained as a chemical engineer (only a "pretend" chemist!), and I worked in chemical production factories for many years. Later on, I was an instructor at a community college teaching algebra, trigonometry, the sciences, and computer stuff. I like figuring out how things work and explaining things.

"...What do you think, is number 27 good enough for a soap to be consider as "good"..."

Do you mean a "long lasting" score of 27? If so, yes, I think that might work well for you based on what I'm seeing with my soaps. But remember this is just my opinion, so please do not take what I'm saying as "gospel truth"! Here is what I have found out:

A mostly lard or tallow soap will have an LL score in the 40s and 50s. A soap like that might be a little too hard and a little too insoluble for many people. One of the first soaps I made was mostly lard with the rest being coconut oil. It has a "LL" score of 38. It was a good soap to make, because I learned I would rather make a soap with a slightly shorter life if that means the soap will have more conditioning and lather.

Several soaps I made after that one had "LL" scores in the lower 20s. These soaps went a little too far in the other direction -- they were conditioning and lathery, but they were too soft and too soluble. I did not like how sticky the bars were when first cut and how long the bars took to harden up during their cure. Some friends who make soap told me they liked these soaps as far as lather and skin feel, but thought the soaps should last longer in the shower. I really took their critique to heart -- their comment really fit into my thoughts that my soap was pretty good, but could be better.

So .... I am currently trying to make a longer lasting bar that is still conditioning and mild. The last several batches of soaps I made have a "LL" score in the mid to upper 20s. Only experience will show if that is a good direction to go, but my sense is that I am on the right track. I made two of these batches this past weekend. I really liked that this soap was dry and firm within 24 hours of pouring it into the mold. The bars cut cleanly and the soap is already firm to the touch even this early into its cure time -- I cannot dent the soap when I press hard with a finger tip. The conditioning is still high -- in the mid 50s -- so I expect the soap will also be mild on the skin. So far so good, but time will tell.....

 

[kazmi]

Thanks for the SL discussion and all of the tips (sorry I kinda hijacked the thread a little). Gonna give it a try on the next batch I make with this darn mold I have that just doesn't want to let go of my soap without pitting the heck out of it :lolno:

 

[kazmi]

DeeAnna I could learn a lot from you (real or 'pretend' chemist)!!!

 

[Cherry Pit Soap Works]

And....DeeAnna is a genius and really should write that book now. Or 10 maybe Kazmi, good luck and let me know how it all goes!

 

[Twiggy]

Chemical engineer sounds pretty real to me!! LOL But is easy to see you have great ease (such a word exist?) to understand such things and probably you know a lot of stuff intuitively. I’m jealous Girl!

DeeAnna if you will ever have an idea to write a little e – booklet I”LL BUY IT! You make soap reactions sooooo interesting – I went straight through all oils in soapcalc, and (I know is only a guide not a “fix” numbers we shouldn't take it as a rule) is amazing what numbers can tell if you know on what r u looking at!

Anna, now I will research for all you posts on forum to read all of what you had to say here LOL

Thank you as usual! I also think I’m on good way here

 

[Robert]

Heh...you could use Epsom salt if you didn't want the soap to dissolve at all, and then you'd really have a long lasting bar! ;-)

 

[Twiggy]

Heh...you could use Epsom salt if you didn't want the soap to dissolve at all, and then you'd really have a long lasting bar! ;-)

hahaha, that would be "forever-soap"!

 

[kazmi]

And....DeeAnna is a genius and really should write that book now. Or 10 maybe Kazmi, good luck and let me know how it all goes!

Thanks ssoooo much for the info on sodium lactate! I used it today and my soap is nearly ready to unmold 8 hours later. Even using palm and/or cocoa butter (even pko) hasn't harden my soap this fast. I only used less than 2% and it didn't cause any problems for me. Didn't try the salt in my lye yet but I didn't even need it. Again, thanks!