Are we allowed to say brand names on this board? I am asking because I want to get into a discussion on labeling. This company is a larger so company which is local but I believe they service organic stores nationwide. I think they started with bars and went to lotions and etc. I bought a fankinsence and myrrh soap. I want to share what I saw on the label and ask about it. I wont further comment unless a moderator says it is okay.
Brand name soap and labels
- Thread starter scrubbie
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yes. It is. Okay I saw some threads about them in the search. SO I will add my argument or questions here. Label reads
Saponified 100%food grade olive, coconut,palm, & Castor Oils in a goat milk base, with herbs, pure essential oils, fragrance oils and aloe.
Back of Bar reads Deep Sweet woodsy are wise to ways of stresed aging skin.
Number one comment and question: Dont they have to list what oils they are and herbs in case someone has allergies? How would you know?
The fact that they mention stressed and aging skin, do they not have to list the INCI name in product label because this is inferring it is medicinal or cosmetic?
I am asking because I heard of a story of the FDA going to craft fair and charging people with 1000 tickets for improper labeling.
A woman who purchased soap didnt like what she smelled can called the FDA. These people were ticketed for the INCI name thing.
There was a secondary issue with a woman who was allergic to cinnamon who purchased a cinnamonn oat meal soap and she got a rash and complained. SO given these variables and these sitautions is this legal or are they taking a risk?
Saponified 100%food grade olive, coconut,palm, & Castor Oils in a goat milk base, with herbs, pure essential oils, fragrance oils and aloe.
Back of Bar reads Deep Sweet woodsy are wise to ways of stresed aging skin.
Number one comment and question: Dont they have to list what oils they are and herbs in case someone has allergies? How would you know?
The fact that they mention stressed and aging skin, do they not have to list the INCI name in product label because this is inferring it is medicinal or cosmetic?
I am asking because I heard of a story of the FDA going to craft fair and charging people with 1000 tickets for improper labeling.
A woman who purchased soap didnt like what she smelled can called the FDA. These people were ticketed for the INCI name thing.
There was a secondary issue with a woman who was allergic to cinnamon who purchased a cinnamonn oat meal soap and she got a rash and complained. SO given these variables and these sitautions is this legal or are they taking a risk?
Genny
Well-Known Member
If you list one ingredient on your labels, then you do have to list all of them.
I honestly don't know if they have to list the specific eo or herb though, since if you use fo's, you don't have to say the specific one that you use.
But if they say that the soap does anything but clean, then it's a cosmetic. So they would have to list the INCI names for ingredients then.
The allergy thing is the number one reason I don't buy things with out an ingredient label, but it sucks when people don't list everything in the product. I had a nasty allergic reaction to aloe in a body butter when the person only listed the oils and then shea butter, not shealoe butter, which is what they put in there.
I honestly don't know if they have to list the specific eo or herb though, since if you use fo's, you don't have to say the specific one that you use.
But if they say that the soap does anything but clean, then it's a cosmetic. So they would have to list the INCI names for ingredients then.
The allergy thing is the number one reason I don't buy things with out an ingredient label, but it sucks when people don't list everything in the product. I had a nasty allergic reaction to aloe in a body butter when the person only listed the oils and then shea butter, not shealoe butter, which is what they put in there.
debbism
Well-Known Member
As someone who buys for an allergic child, I would never purchase a product that was not labeled with all ingredients. Allergies are strange things and there can always be a reaction to any ingredient so why the secrecy?
Hence I always put every ingredient on my soaps....I list each EO separately and do not list "EO Blend" like i have seen other places.
Hence I always put every ingredient on my soaps....I list each EO separately and do not list "EO Blend" like i have seen other places.
I have asked this a thousand times! HOW do they get away with it?!
they list "saponified oils" - though I think this is legal?
"goat's milk base" what?
eo, herbs, colorants not listed
claims
there is a company local to me that uses only EO but lists "fragrance" in the INCI, followed by parentheses which state that the fragrance is made up of only eo - I think this must be the loophole to being able to use EO and not list them individually? they ARE tagging the eo blend as "fragrance."
so it says:
Lavender and Clary Sage Body Balm (name of product)
Ingredients: ingredient, ingredient, ingredient, fragrance (made of pure essential oils, including lavender and clary sage), ingredient, ingredient.
they list "saponified oils" - though I think this is legal?
"goat's milk base" what?
eo, herbs, colorants not listed
claims
there is a company local to me that uses only EO but lists "fragrance" in the INCI, followed by parentheses which state that the fragrance is made up of only eo - I think this must be the loophole to being able to use EO and not list them individually? they ARE tagging the eo blend as "fragrance."
so it says:
Lavender and Clary Sage Body Balm (name of product)
Ingredients: ingredient, ingredient, ingredient, fragrance (made of pure essential oils, including lavender and clary sage), ingredient, ingredient.
debbism
Well-Known Member
as far as I know, as long as you are not claiming anything but a soap that cleans, you do not even have to list ingredients so "saponified oils of:" would be ok to use. I have seen this many times on other soaps and I have not read anything to the contrary.
EDIT: But to add again, listing the ingredients in SOME form is, to me, the right thing to do regardless of what the law says
EDIT: But to add again, listing the ingredients in SOME form is, to me, the right thing to do regardless of what the law says
green soap
Well-Known Member
That's right, at least in the USA. Soap needs to be labelled as:
Soap. It has to say somewhere in there that it is soap. Should be obvious?
The weight should be listed.
The manufacturer name or contact information.
If you do not make any health claims you do not need to list the ingredients, other than say it is soap.
This is as far as legalities. As far as customer appeal, I think it is better to list the ingredients. But is is not required if you just sell 'soap'. Any health or cosmetic claim will classify the product as a cosmetic, then the labelling requirements become more complicated.
Soap. It has to say somewhere in there that it is soap. Should be obvious?
The weight should be listed.
The manufacturer name or contact information.
If you do not make any health claims you do not need to list the ingredients, other than say it is soap.
This is as far as legalities. As far as customer appeal, I think it is better to list the ingredients. But is is not required if you just sell 'soap'. Any health or cosmetic claim will classify the product as a cosmetic, then the labelling requirements become more complicated.
bombus
Well-Known Member
Sorry to say that according to the HSMG, your home address also must be on the label unless your business is listed in the local phone book.
I think that sucks. I don't want some meth manufacturer breaking in to steal lye for their product, and I don't really want my customers knocking on my door.
I think that sucks. I don't want some meth manufacturer breaking in to steal lye for their product, and I don't really want my customers knocking on my door.
debbism
Well-Known Member
For those that craft soap from home, putting your home address is dangerous and I cannot imagine the enforcement of that. Using your website and listing your city & state would suffice since your contact information can be obtained on the website.
bombus said:
A lady on another forum I'm on shared a story about a customer coming to her home to purchase products. She got her address from the label and just showed up! Luckily she was a nice lady and the soaper actually had products on hand to sell her!
fiddletree
Well-Known Member
In the EU, we have to have a complete INCI, but essential oils can be clumped together as 'fragrance' or 'parfum'. However, we do have to list ALL allergens present in the product on the ingredient list, which are usually from EOs. It's a royal pain to do, but I think that it is good for the customers. If they know they have a problem with linalool, for example, they can avoid it! Although I doubt anyone in the world knows which specific allergens found in fragrances they have a problem with.
Whenever I have bought soap in the US, I am super cautious, as it is so unregulated.
Whenever I have bought soap in the US, I am super cautious, as it is so unregulated.
green soap
Well-Known Member
I recently had a customer show up at my house when DH and I were having dinner. He is a facebook friend, so i had met him once. I turns out he wanted the jams (we also sell jams and other food products). It was fine, but I did remove my home address from my facebook business page, so folks have to call or email and let us know they are coming. It did startle us a bit.
I agree that forcing soapmakers to print their home address is dangerous and not enforceable.
I agree that forcing soapmakers to print their home address is dangerous and not enforceable.
SoapyStacy
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Here is a post from someone on another board (regarding a post about a different well-known brand of soap):
"...my understanding is that as long as you don't mention that your soap has some beneficial quality, i. e., good for acne, etc., it is not considered a "cosmetic", it is "soap", and therefore INCI nomenclature is not required. "
This was tested via our US distributor and the FDA officer concerned
had a different spin on things, and INCI nomenclature was required. We
do not make any claims on our packaging. The response from FDA (the
exact written words from the FDA officer) was:
Soaps that do not contain any cosmetic ingredients such as fragrance
and colors and are purely made of saponified fatty acids are not in
FDA’s jurisdiction.
The only soaps that are not regulated by the FDA are solid bars of
basic unscented soap that have no cosmetic ingredients or claims.
In other words, if you add a fragrance then it becomes a cosmetic.
"...my understanding is that as long as you don't mention that your soap has some beneficial quality, i. e., good for acne, etc., it is not considered a "cosmetic", it is "soap", and therefore INCI nomenclature is not required. "
This was tested via our US distributor and the FDA officer concerned
had a different spin on things, and INCI nomenclature was required. We
do not make any claims on our packaging. The response from FDA (the
exact written words from the FDA officer) was:
Soaps that do not contain any cosmetic ingredients such as fragrance
and colors and are purely made of saponified fatty acids are not in
FDA’s jurisdiction.
The only soaps that are not regulated by the FDA are solid bars of
basic unscented soap that have no cosmetic ingredients or claims.
In other words, if you add a fragrance then it becomes a cosmetic.
hmm... I'm being a downer, but this is my opinion. The fda requires that the manufacturer produce a safe product, and they assume they do until they are told otherwise... So, if a company can profit $100,000 a year and only have two or three minor lawsuits that settle out of court for $10,000... then they still make a profit and can choose to take their chances... that's why they have insurance.
*That* is a big part of why I make soap, and the people who enjoy my soap all love the fact that they know exactly what they are getting.
*That* is a big part of why I make soap, and the people who enjoy my soap all love the fact that they know exactly what they are getting.
debbism
Well-Known Member
SoapyStacy said:
This is good to know. I do think the FDA officer was being a hard-ass since the FDA site specifically says this:
How FDA defines "soap"
Not every product marketed as soap meets FDA's definition of the term. FDA interprets the term "soap" to apply only when --
The bulk of the nonvolatile matter in the product consists of an alkali salt of fatty acids and the product's detergent properties are due to the alkali-fatty acid compounds, and
The product is labeled, sold, and represented solely as soap [21 CFR 701.20].
If you follow them to a T, it says nothing about fragrance and color. I find it particularly disturbing that they can publish one thing and act upon something else.
Deda
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The owner of IndigoWild is a member here, she doesn't post, but she can still see what's written.
I believe that the way she labels her soap is within the guidelines for the CPSC. They are the ones who regulate soap, not the FDA. Now if you make claims about your soap then you're stepping over lines and it becomes a cosmetic. Simply adding a fragrance doesn't affect this status.
Also, dangerous or not, it's REQUIRED that you list your address if your business is not listed in the local phonebook. If you're worried about someone knowing your address then get a PO Box.
I believe that the way she labels her soap is within the guidelines for the CPSC. They are the ones who regulate soap, not the FDA. Now if you make claims about your soap then you're stepping over lines and it becomes a cosmetic. Simply adding a fragrance doesn't affect this status.
Also, dangerous or not, it's REQUIRED that you list your address if your business is not listed in the local phonebook. If you're worried about someone knowing your address then get a PO Box.
SoapyStacy
Active Member
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I'd like to know if it is allowed to label a product "dish soap" or "hand soap", or is that going too far?
