Bastile comedogenic or not?

[Garden Gives Me Joy]

Attached is my recipe. I am hesitant to offer the soap to friends with oily, acne-prone skin because of different sources of information online that appears contradictory. Are my concerns justifiable?

A basic Google search said this.
Quote
Olive Oil is a heavy oil, so it doesn't absorb easily into the skin, and it can also be a breeding ground for bacteria, which can cause clogged pores and acne. It's moderately comedogenic, meaning that it is likely to clog your pores and lead to irritation or acne.
UNquote

However, I get confused when I see the following apparently contradictory information. For instance, is Bronner's soap actually Bastile (more like mine) ... or does saponification somehow make OO less comedogenic or are they using hidden additives? Is it that marketers apply the word 'Castile' for Bastile for label effect? Articles often speak of 'Castile' soaps as being very cleansing when, from my experience, 100% OO soap is not very cleansing. Are they playing with words for consumers who want the best of both worlds, ie cleansing on one hand and rich emollience from olive oil on the next? I notice that the quote re Dr Bronner's soap does not say 'pure Castile soap' but 'pure Dr Bronner's ...'. (almost as if to imply company's version) of Castile. Can someone please resolve my confusion? Am I likely to cause clogged pores?

Quote
Bronner's Pure-Castile Soap works very well, whether you have acne-prone skin or not. ... The soap is particularly good at removing oily excess sebum, because of the way a true soap fully surrounds oil molecules so that they can then be rinsed off with water.
Unquote

Here is another quote.
Quote
Castile soap is a strong cleanser but very mild on skin. With excess sebum, the soap molecules surround the oily molecules thus rinsing them off the skin. Castile soap is non comedogenic. It is made using oils like olive oil but does not clog pores because of the oils.
UNquote

 

[AliOop]

Yes, you said it - the nature of each oil is changed by saponification. For instance, CO is often used as a moisturizer for skin and hair, but once saponified, it is a very cleansing oil that can make for very dry skin. Similarly, olive oil is greasy and comedogenic before saponification, but not so after.

"True" Castile was traditionally 100% OO. But there was a lawsuit some time ago wherein soapmakers won the right to call their soap "Castile" as long as it was 100% vegan. Many soapmakers would call that a Bastile, but non-soapmakers wouldn't know the difference.

In Dr. Bronner's soap, coconut oil is the first ingredient, with olive oil second, and then a few other soaping oils and essential oils, depending on which version you are buying. Most people find Dr. B's pretty drying unless it is significantly diluted, but I haven't heard of anyone say that it was comedogenic for them.

 

[Johnez]

I wonder how this works with superfats. If saponified oils are no problem, and the oil itself is the problem, would that not make superfatting an issue? Perhaps those fat molecules being suspended in the soap make it no biggie? I don't know, bit would definitely appreciate hearing a response from a wiser soaper on this.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Still not sold on the dirty details of what CP “superfat” actually is. I can't imagine it's only fats (triglycerides) that are floating around just in the way they did in the original oil. If lye attack on glycerol esters happens statistically random, I'd expect 5% SF soap to consist of 13.6% monoglycerides, 0.71% diglycerides, and only 0.013% triglycerides (along with 85.8% fully cleaved glycerol). Even if lye attack rates are higher on mono- & diglycerides than on intact oil molecules, these numbers won't change drastically.
Someone to crank up their NMR spectrometer.

ETA: That of course doesn't tell us anything if not a monoglyceride behaves similar enough to a triglyceride for this calculus to be superfluous anyway.

 

[Johnez]

Still not sold on the dirty details of what CP “superfat” actually is. I can't imagine it's only fats (triglycerides) that are floating around just in the way they did in the original oil. If lye attack on glycerol esters happens statistically random, I'd expect 5% SF soap to consist of 13.6% monoglycerides, 0.71% diglycerides, and only 0.013% triglycerides (along with 85.8% fully cleaved glycerol). Even if lye attack rates are higher on mono- & diglycerides than on intact oil molecules, these numbers won't change drastically.
Someone to crank up their NMR spectrometer.

ETA: That of course doesn't tell us anything if not a monoglyceride behaves similar enough to a triglyceride for this calculus to be superfluous anyway.

I've never....*hesitant*.....uh.....made a CP soap. I'm curious as an HPer being able to control superfats in a way.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Well, the same is true for lazy HPers who do a lye discount like in a CP recipe. But then, HP (soap dough shenanigans aside) offers the advantage of choosing superfat as late/post-cook addition. There it's clear that it's mostly undamaged triglycerides.

 

[Rsapienza]

I believe I once saw a post from @DeeAnna explaining this a bit more. I’m pretty sure she said the SF is not free flowing oils in their pure form and that they go through some sort of change. Maybe if she sees this, she will give her input.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

"True" Castile was traditionally 100% OO. But there was a lawsuit some time ago wherein soapmakers won the right to call their soap "Castile" as long as it was 100% vegan. Many soapmakers would call that a Bastile, but non-soapmakers wouldn't know the difference.

I would just add to that, Dr B's Castile, as well as Dirk's Castile (100% Coconut) have been around since the hippy days of the 60's. At that time, true soap was made with tallow and other animal fats. "Castile" indicated "no animal fats were used" to make the soap. At the same time, the OTC so-called "soap" that you bought at the grocery store were syndets (synthetic/detergent) and had names like "Beauty Bar", "Sports Bar", i.e., NOT technically soap.

"Castile"/"Bastile" exists only in the lexicon of soapmakers' forums and groups. The nomenclature is meant to distinguish 100% OO from 70% OO + other vegetable oils. There is no such distinction in the commercial world

Perhaps those fat molecules being suspended in the soap make it no biggie? I don't know, bit would definitely appreciate hearing a response from a wiser soaper on this.

From @DeeAnna 's Soapy Stuff: SOAP/SUPERFAT

Attached is my recipe. I am hesitant to offer the soap to friends with oily, acne-prone skin because of different sources of information online that appears contradictory. Are my concerns justifiable?

While your concern is justifianble, be at ease. Straight olive oil on your skin (for whatever reason) may or may not cause blemishes. It depends on the person. It's a great cleanser -- removes waterproof mascara easily. In soap form, olive oil becomes a wash-off product known to provide gentle cleansing, good for babies, cancer patients undergoing chemo, and mature or sensitive skin. Savon de Marseilles is a good example of a castile soap that the French use, not only for bathing, but for general household chores like laundry and washing the floor.

Your recipe is okay as is with a cleansing value of 21 and conditioning value of 60. Although some would find a cleansing value of 21 very drying, it is offset with the high conditioning value. However, I would adjust the Sat:Unsat ratio to get it a little more into balance by upping the olive oil and lowering the coconut oil.

5% castor is fine.

3% SF will produce a fair amount of so-called "slime" aka "snot" aka "mucus" -- the lather is like washing with a gelatinous oil, for lack of a better description. Some people love it and others absolutely hate it.

 

[Johnez]

I would just add to that, Dr B's Castile, as well as Dirk's Castile (100% Coconut) have been around since the hippy days of the 60's. At that time, true soap was made with tallow and other animal fats. "Castile" indicated "no animal fats were used" to make the soap. At the same time, the OTC so-called "soap" that you bought at the grocery store were syndets (synthetic/detergent) and had names like "Beauty Bar", "Sports Bar", i.e., NOT technically soap.

"Castile"/"Bastile" exists only in the lexicon of soapmakers' forums and groups. The nomenclature is meant to distinguish 100% OO from 70% OO + other vegetable oils. There is no such distinction in the commercial world

From @DeeAnna 's Soapy Stuff: SOAP/SUPERFAT


While your concern is justifianble, be at ease. Straight olive oil on your skin (for whatever reason) may or may not cause blemishes. It depends on the person. It's a great cleanser -- removes waterproof mascara easily. In soap form, olive oil becomes a wash-off product known to provide gentle cleansing, good for babies, cancer patients undergoing chemo, and mature or sensitive skin. Savon de Marseilles is a good example of a castile soap that the French use, not only for bathing, but for general household chores like laundry and washing the floor.

Your recipe is okay as is with a cleansing value of 21 and conditioning value of 60. Although some would find a cleansing value of 21 very drying, it is offset with the high conditioning value. However, I would adjust the Sat:Unsat ratio to get it a little more into balance by upping the olive oil and lowering the coconut oil.

5% castor is fine.

3% SF will produce a fair amount of so-called "slime" aka "snot" aka "mucus" -- the lather is like washing with a gelatinous oil, for lack of a better description. Some people love it and others absolutely hate it.

Thanks for the excellent article and the slice of history regarding Castile soap. Interesting how some of the more exotic butters are more prone to breaking down even without lye. Makes me all the more determined to get my recipe down with basics before getting too wound up in SFs.

 

[William Wead]

Many of y'all need to look at a Dr. Bronner's label again. Was founded in 1858. Not the 1960s. Doesn't say pure dr bronners Castile, but pure-castile soap in the largest letters on the label. For ingredients. Coconut oil is first. 2nd ingredient is palm oil. Then water. Then Olive oil. So it's not 2nd. Then the fragrance oil unless unscented baby, uh which gets 2nd dose of olive oil. Hemp oil. Jojoba oil. Sea salt. Citric acid. Lastly Tocopherol (vitamin e good for anti-aging and uv protection) I'm still using the stuff until I can hopefully learn here to make any better. But for under $4 for a 5oz bar, that's a challenge I may never accomplish.

 

[violets2217]

Many of y'all need to look at a Dr. Bronner's label again. Was founded in 1858. Not the 1960s.

Well actually... His family were soap makers for generations before he was born, but from the website: "Dr. Bronner’s was founded in 1948 by Emanuel Bronner, a third- generation master soapmaker from a German-Jewish soapmaking family. He used the labels on his superb ecological soaps to spread his message that we must realize our transcendent unity across religious & ethnic divides: “We are All-One or None!” Still family-owned and run, Dr. Bronner’s honors its founder’s vision by making socially & environmentally responsible products of the highest quality—and by dedicating our profits to help make a better world. All-One! "
I'm glad you brought this to my attention... such a cool story! He had to escape an insane asylum in 1945! Never used the soap, but very interesting history!

However, I would adjust the Sat:Unsat ratio to get it a little more into balance by upping the olive oil and lowering the coconut oil.

I need to actually look at my Sat:Unsat ratio.... maybe I need to research a bit more.

3% SF will produce a fair amount of so-called "slime" aka "snot" aka "mucus" -- the lather is like washing with a gelatinous oil, for lack of a better description. Some people love it and others absolutely hate it.

Just reading this made me gag.... But, adjusting the SF remedies this slime issue?

Any castille/bastille soap I've made does not agree with my skin at all. Dries it out and breaks it out at the same time.

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

Many of y'all need to look at a Dr. Bronner's label again. Was founded in 1858. Not the 1960s. Doesn't say pure dr bronners Castile, but pure-castile soap in the largest letters on the label. For ingredients. Coconut oil is first. 2nd ingredient is palm oil. Then water. Then Olive oil. So it's not 2nd. Then the fragrance oil unless unscented baby, uh which gets 2nd dose of olive oil. Hemp oil. Jojoba oil. Sea salt. Citric acid. Lastly Tocopherol (vitamin e good for anti-aging and uv protection) I'm still using the stuff until I can hopefully learn here to make any better. But for under $4 for a 5oz bar, that's a challenge I may never accomplish.

Hello & Welcome
Hope you can one day create that soap' & even better.

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

@violets2217
Thx for the info' goodness thats interesting .

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I would just add to that, Dr B's Castile, as well as Dirk's Castile (100% Coconut)

Correction: That should read "Kirk's Castile".

Just reading this made me gag.... But, adjusting the SF remedies this slime issue?

Yes. I use 0% SF. Please see Zany's No Slime Castile.

Any castille/bastille soap I've made does not agree with my skin at all. Dries it out and breaks it out at the same time.

I have mature, dry, sensitive skin. I use ZNSC to wash my face AM and PM. I make the 85% Olive Oil, 10% Coconut Oil, 5% Castor version. I love the feel of the creamy lather -- like washing with cold cream without the greasiness. Rinses clean easily with no feeling of tightness. That being said, You are not alone. Other members have reported that reaction to Olive Oil soap. You may want to try making the ZNSC with Almond Oil for that reason.

@William Wead - Thank you for that helpful input. You are referring to the label on the bar soap, yes? Because of that, I looked at the recipe again. The OP is making Dr. Bronner's Liquid Soap, not bar soap -- using KOH instead of NaOH. I didn't realize that when I first responded.

I'm still using the stuff until I can hopefully learn here to make any better. But for under $4 for a 5oz bar, that's a challenge I may never accomplish.

I think we can help you formulate a recipe for Dr. B's hard bar. But first, when you have a moment, please go to the Introduction Forum and tell us as much as you care to share about yourself, but especially about your soap making experience. This will help us to help you when questions or problems arise.
Then go to the Recipe Feedback forum and start a thread that lists the ingredients as shown on the label. Mention Dr. Bronner's Bar Soap in the Title to avoid confusion, like what happened here.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

@Garden Gives Me Joy - I hope you can feel confident now about making Castie/Bastile bar soap or liquid soap without having to worry about it causing clogged pores. Yes?

Attached is my recipe.

Correction: I have to apologize. I thought it was a bar recipe! I didn't realize until now that you are making liquid soap. There are 2 corrections to make. For clear LS use 0%SF and for the KOH solution, choose the water : lye ratio and type in 3:1 -- like this:

Oh my. I just looked at it again. It shows you are making a small batch -- too small! That can't be correct, is it?!!

In any case, I just posted a thread with a video to make a Dr. Bronner's Copycat Recipe that I think is pretty cool. Even though I make my own version of Dr. B's castile, I'm going to try that one -- just for fun!

ETA: 9/30/21 Edited link to take you to the correct thread.

 

[William Wead]

Correction: That should read "Kirk's Castile".


Yes. I use 0% SF. Please see Zany's No Slime Castile.

I have mature, dry, sensitive skin. I use ZNSC to wash my face AM and PM. I make the 85% Olive Oil, 10% Coconut Oil, 5% Castor version. I love the feel of the creamy lather -- like washing with cold cream without the greasiness. Rinses clean easily with no feeling of tightness. That being said, You are not alone. Other members have reported that reaction to Olive Oil soap. You may want to try making the ZNSC with Almond Oil for that reason.

@William Wead - Thank you for that helpful input. You are referring to the label on the bar soap, yes? Because of that, I looked at the recipe again. The OP is making Dr. Bronner's Liquid Soap, not bar soap -- using KOH instead of NaOH. I didn't realize that when I first responded.

I think we can help you formulate a recipe for Dr. B's hard bar. But first, when you have a moment, please go to the Introduction Forum and tell us as much as you care to share about yourself, but especially about your soap making experience. This will help us to help you when questions or problems arise.
Then go to the Recipe Feedback forum and start a thread that lists the ingredients as shown on the label. Mention Dr. Bronner's Bar Soap in the Title to avoid confusion, like what happened here.

Yes. It was from the bar soap label. Of the 8 labels, the only difference is the name of the scent. In these days of self promotion something nice about that. Also seems a lot more natural than Kirk's after reading their label. Don't have much experience making soap. The stuff I've made would take leather off a donkey. So I use Bronners for dishes, my hair, everything until I can make/find better.

 

[William Wead]

Well actually... His family were soap makers for generations before he was born, but from the website: "Dr. Bronner’s was founded in 1948 by Emanuel Bronner, a third- generation master soapmaker from a German-Jewish soapmaking family. He used the labels on his superb ecological soaps to spread his message that we must realize our transcendent unity across religious & ethnic divides: “We are All-One or None!” Still family-owned and run, Dr. Bronner’s honors its founder’s vision by making socially & environmentally responsible products of the highest quality—and by dedicating our profits to help make a better world. All-One! "
I'm glad you brought this to my attention... such a cool story! He had to escape an insane asylum in 1945! Never used the soap, but very interesting history!



I need to actually look at my Sat:Unsat ratio.... maybe I need to research a bit more.



Just reading this made me gag.... But, adjusting the SF remedies this slime issue?

Any castille/bastille soap I've made does not agree with my skin at all. Dries it out and breaks it out at the same time.

Might want to read that again. It's 1858. Not 1948.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Might want to read that again. It's 1858. Not 1948.

Is this date worth a dispute? It should be easy for either of you to avoid a harsh tone by citing proper sources.

 

[Marsi]

Just reading this made me gag.... But, adjusting the SF remedies this slime issue?

using a washcloth, soft brush or sponge
and keeping the soap out of standing water
helps stop the creation of olive soap gel

my skin gets dry with olive oil based soaps
so as much as i want to use olive oil in my soap
i use other oils in soap recipes for my combination skin

 

[artemis]

Is this date worth a dispute? It should be easy for either of you to avoid a harsh tone by citing proper sources.

And here I was, about to share a screenshot of the "about" page that shows the 1948 quote. Clearly it's time for me to get off my phone.