Basic among Basics

[ResolvableOwl]

My sole interest is in bar soap.

Then I recommend you to select appropriate oils. You have now seen that soapmaking works in principle, you have got many of the basic tools, concepts and ingredients. And family deserves decent gifts. (sorry in case I'm judging your family too benevolently )

Either stay with pure olive oil and go the long way of castile enlightenment (there, one month is BY FAR not sufficient – but you essentially have no free parameters in the recipe either).

Or seek for balanced recipes, i. e. with hard oils like palm, lard, or soy wax. Fiddling with softish soaps gives you precious experience, but this experience is of limited use once you switch to a recipe to happily give out of hand.

 

[Marsi]

You know, I wondered about this. The dissolving is exothermic and the heat probably allows more Hydroixide to dissolve. By the time I farted around stirring in mica, little streamers of white were starting to form on the lye, so my guess is it was coming out of saturation.

you are looking at caustic steam
put a loose lid on it, use an exhaust fan or other ventilation
dont breathe the fumes

Yeah, did that, and put the absolute minimum quantity of water, as not using a hot recipe, but like I say I think that gave a saturated solution. The calculator suggested this would yield a hard soap and gave me the option of (up to) a further 40ml of water. I didn't add the extra water as I was afraid of cooling the solution further and maybe making more of the solute come out.

there is no need to work so hard to make a soap with a saturated lye solution when a 33% lye solution is easier and safer to use
it is easy to calculate - 123g of NaOH needs 246g of water to make a 2:1 (or 33.3%) lye solution

it does not matter if your lye solution gets down to room temperature
(with the proviso that you dont overheat your oils - oils only need to be warm enough to melt hard oils, soft oils can be at room temperature)

Also, my first effort still isn't firm and I was desperately trying to make a hard soap.

water is not what makes your final soap hard or soft, it is your choice of oils

Me too. I used the-sage.com. Which one did you use? Either way, I thin I'll do the same recipe again, but with 100ml water.

i suggest that 123g of water is the minium amount for this recipe, and about 160g of water might be sweet for this recipe.

this recipe will be soft because the oils are soft oils (liquid at room temperature is an easy way to distinguish soft oils from hard oils, hard oils are solid at room temperature)

while it would be easier to add hard oils to firm up the recipe, you can use a small amount of salt (eg. 5g dissolve in your water before you add the NaOH) to increase hardness and the same in sugar to bring back some bubbles (salt and beeswax reduce bubbles)

this soap calculator is a good one

*edited
welcome to the addiction

 

[earlene]

Two points:

1. You used WAY too much NaOH for that recipe. What Soap Calculator are you using??? What settings???
2. NaOH dissolves in an equal amount of water weight, not less. Unless your NaOH sat around and absorbed 53 grams of water before you ever weighed it out, it could not dissolve in that amount of water (80 grams of water will dissolve 80 grams of NaOH, but not 123 grams.)

The other option that would allow the NaOH to dissolve is IF you used milk (not butter, but actual milk) PLUS the water, which is then 180 grams of liquid. That would dissolve 123 grams of NaOH. But you said butter, so I cannot believe that your NaOH fully dissolved. Did you use a clear container and ensure that it had all dissolved before adding it to the oils? It was more likely a slurry resembling water with too much salt or too much sugar or even gruel or porridge.

However, according to Soapmaking Recipe Builder & Lye Calculator and SoapCalc.com depending on if you chose "Milk Fat, any bovine" or "Ghee, any bovine" for that amount of fat (305 grams of oil total), you only needed 41.35 grams of NaOH if you chose a 5% superfat.


So since you soap 'stings' your tongue (meaning it zaps & is lye heavy), then it seems quite likely that it didn't all dissolve AND you ended up with undissolved NaOH in your soap.


PLEASE, before you make another batch of soap, put the recipe here before us to double check your figures. None of us would have given the go-ahead on that recipe because it is NOT SAFE soap.

 

[TheGecko]

I believe in the metric system: 1 ml = 1 gram.
so I don't think this will be a problem.

It depends on the density of the ingredient doesn’t matter if it’s Metric or Imperial. Again 8 oz of water by volume is the same as 8 oz of water by weight, but 8 oz of EVOO by volume is 7.9 oz by weight.

I’ll be honest…I never gave much thought to the differences of volume vs weight, though perhaps I should have considering I use brown sugar in baking and the rule of thumb is that you have to pack it down. It wasn’t until I started watching the Great British Baking Show and realized how much more accurate measuring by weight is, especially when it comes to solid or dry ingredients. And then I got into soap making and the first time I tried to put a new ingredient into SoapMaker 3, it asked me what the density of the ingredient was and I was like…WTH?!?

 

[kdm]

If it doesn't turn into soap eventually, don't get too down, we all have failures at times, and as long as you learn from it, it's not wasted!

I'm happy that it was sort of soap coloured and sort of soapy!

... lard is a very well behaved oil for soap making...
... Maybe add about 15-20% coconut oil ...

On my way to Tesco just now! (Other supermarkets do exist and may stock soapmaking products. )

 

[kdm]

Two points:
1. You used WAY too much NaOH for that recipe. What Soap Calculator are you using??? What settings???

the-sage.com calculator. I entered the mass of the ingredients:

• 100g dairy butter
• 100g olive oil
• 100g sunflower oil
• 5g beeswax

...and it came back with 123g NaOH and 76-115ml water. Per earlier advice, I had also set Lye concentration 33%. My first experiment was too runny, so I went with 80ml water.

I notice that if I go back to default settings for concentration, it does suggest 40.7g.

I have a feeling the w/w setting for concentration is inverted in this calculator, @AliOop, because if I propose 66%, the NaOH drops to 62g.

2. NaOH dissolves in an equal amount of water weight, not less. Unless your NaOH sat around and absorbed 53 grams of water before you ever weighed it out, it could not dissolve in that amount of water (80 grams of water will dissolve 80 grams of NaOH, but not 123 grams.)

How can I tell if my NaOH is damp? It's a fresh bottle.

The other option that would allow the NaOH to dissolve is IF you used milk (not butter, but actual milk) PLUS the water, which is then 180 grams of liquid. That would dissolve 123 grams of NaOH. But you said butter, so I cannot believe that your NaOH fully dissolved. Did you use a clear container and ensure that it had all dissolved before adding it to the oils? It was more likely a slurry resembling water with too much salt or too much sugar or even gruel or porridge.

Stainless bowl. The only liquid I added the dry hydroxide to was water. It wasn't sludgy; just maybe slightly grey, but definitely dissolved. I suspect it dissolved so well due to the heat generated. I suspect it was saturate and that it started to com out of solution as it cooled.

So since you soap 'stings' your tongue (meaning it zaps & is lye heavy), then it seems quite likely that it didn't all dissolve AND you ended up with undissolved NaOH in your soap.

Based on the zappiness, I wouldn't have used it.

PLEASE, before you make another batch of soap, put the recipe here before us to double check your figures. None of us would have given the go-ahead on that recipe because it is NOT SAFE soap.

Appreciated.

 

[KiwiMoose]

OKay. Sucked up everything you guys said. Still trying to draw only on what I have lying around in the shed. New "tight-arse beginner's recipe."
100g olive oil
100g sunflower oil
100g (milk) butter
5g beeswax
123g NaOH
80ml water

A new set of scales which go to the nearest 1g.

This one, I could barely pour. I think it had started to gel before I could get it out of the jug. I did just about manage to mix in some mica power out of curiosity.
I even made a new silicone mould. (I am a liar. I made this mould ages ago for moulding polyester penturning blanks.)

Now I have to wait a MONTH before I find out if I made soap? OKay. Speak to you in October.

Oh dear - I use only a little more lye than that to saponify 1kg of oils! The reason is burns you tongue is because it is lye heavy. Your water should always be at the bare minimum the same weight as the lye. SO you may have to biff this lot out beccaseu your lye would not have been able to dissolve properly.

 

[Babyshoes]

I'm happy that it was sort of soap coloured and sort of soapy!

On my way to Tesco just now! (Other supermarkets do exist and may stock soapmaking products. )

I threw together a simple recipe using the 3 oils I suggested; you're welcome to use this until you have a better feel for developing your own recipes.
It should be reasonably hard, not too drying, and will have a small but sufficient amount of bubbles. It also shouldn't be too prone to DOS. (dreaded orange spots - aka rancid soap.)

 

[KiwiMoose]

Tesco:
Lard
Rice Bran Oil
Coconut Oil - this is pretty expensive. it doesn't have to be virgin or organic, so if you can get cheaper, go for it
and of course Olive oil you have
How about Avocado Oil? That's quite nice too ( but expensive) you only need to use 5% in your recipe.

Sing out when you get home and we'll throw together a recipe for ya!

 

[kdm]

Oh dear - I use only a little more lye than that to saponify 1kg of oils! The reason is burns you tongue is because it is lye heavy. Your water should always be at the bare minimum the same weight as the lye. SO you may have to biff this lot out beccaseu your lye would not have been able to dissolve properly.

Duly "biffed". There were visible crystals on the surface today. Not putting that anywhere near any living thing.

 

[kdm]

you are looking at caustic steam

Well ventilated shed and a respirator!

there is no need to work so hard to make a soap with a saturated lye solution when a 33% lye solution is easier and safer to use
it is easy to calculate - 123g of NaOH needs 246g of water to make a 2:1 (or 33.3%) lye solution

I wasn't working hard on saturating it: it's what the calculator recommended when I requests a 33% solution. I firmly believe the-sage calculator works in % liquid, not % hydroxide! Which is how I ended up with stupid 1:2 instead of 2:1 !

water is not what makes your final soap hard or soft, it is your choice of oils

Noted.

welcome to the addiction

Where's the "roll-eyes" smiley!?!?

 

[earlene]

the-sage.com calculator. I entered the mass of the ingredients:

• 100g dairy butter
• 100g olive oil
• 100g sunflower oil
• 5g beeswax

...and it came back with 123g NaOH and 76-115ml water. Per earlier advice, I had also set Lye concentration 33%. My first experiment was too runny, so I went with 80ml water.

I notice that if I go back to default settings for concentration, it does suggest 40.7g.

I have a feeling the w/w setting for concentration is inverted in this calculator, @AliOop, because if I propose 66%, the NaOH drops to 62g.


How can I tell if my NaOH is damp? It's a fresh bottle.

Stainless bowl. The only liquid I added the dry hydroxide to was water. It wasn't sludgy; just maybe slightly grey, but definitely dissolved. I suspect it dissolved so well due to the heat generated. I suspect it was saturate and that it started to com out of solution as it cooled.

I see that Lye Calculator - TheSage.com gives 40.7 grams of NaOH for 6% SuperFat with a range of water of 76 to 114 fluid ounces.

I don't like this calculator for a couple of reasons.

First, it requires 2 steps to get your calculations. I prefer the ones that update on-the-fly without the additional click to get the results.

Second, I like a little more precision in my calculator than this one has. (The results for lye concentration is not precisely portrayed in this calculator, whereas it can be in many others.) Plus I don't the mixing of weights of measure. When I choose 'grams' I want all ingredients to be listed in grams. In any case, I find this calculator to be too cumbersome for my liking, so I am not well versed in using it as I found others I liked better.

For the precision I prefer in a calculator, I recommend either

soapee.com

or

https://www.soapmakingfriend.com/soap-making-recipe-builder-lye-calculator/
SoapCalc is the choice of many soapmakers & I used it for awhile myself, but it's another that requires that second step, whereas the two I recommend make the adjustments on-the-fly whenever I make a change to the recipe, so the result is updated immediately on the same page.

As for how you can determine if your lye is damp, look for clumps. A fresh bottle of NaOH should be dry without any clumping whatsoever. Always keep the lid on tight between uses, and replace the lid immediately after you weigh your dry lye on your scale. Don't leave the weighed dry lye out to the air for an extended period of time, not just for safety reasons, but also so it won't absorb additional ambient water from the air, as it is prone to do given the chance.

Incidentally, everyone's lye solution heats up; it is the nature of lye. In fact, be careful if you ever use a liquid other than water to make your solution, as any sugar-containing liquid will increase the exothermic reaction so much that the solution can boil over and volcano out of the mixing vessel quite explosively.

 

[AliOop]

Late to the party here, but I apologize @kdm if I gave the impression that you should use 33% concentration and also reduce water from there. That isn't at all what I meant to say, since the purpose of using the concentration % is that you don't do any more fiddling with the amount of liquid.

That being said, it did occur to me that somehow your water and lye amounts were reversed. Sounds like you have it all sorted now.

 

[kdm]

Late to the party here, but I apologize @kdm if I gave the impression that you should use 33% concentration and also reduce water from there. That isn't at all what I meant to say, since the purpose of using the concentration % is that you don't do any more fiddling with the amount of liquid.

Not in the slightest bit necessary! If I had my thinking head on I should have realised that there was no way I should dissolve twice the mass of Hydroxide in water! This calculator is definitely upside-down. It gives 100-n% ratios.
Also, it was the calculator (subsequently shown to not be anyone's favourite!) which gave a range for the water quantity. Not you.

That being said, it did occur to me that somehow your water and lye amounts were reversed. Sounds like you have it all sorted now.

I think so. I'll use a different calculator! You're still on the Christmas Card List! ;-)

 

[KiwiMoose]

I think so. I'll use a different calculator! You're still on the Christmas Card List! ;-)

Can I get a Christmas card too? ☺

 

[Marsi]

Where's the "roll-eyes" smiley!?!?

Christmas card

 

[kdm]

Can I get a Christmas card too? ☺

Well, it's normally for folk who erroneously think they ejected themselves from the list. I mean you're on the Teflon coated list of "Good Guys" which is pretty enviable. I don't want to start a kind of snowball effect nor sound like a psychopath, but you're ALL on some kind of list.

 

[kdm]

Christmas card

Oh, dear God, what have I done?

 

[AliOop]

Oh, dear God, what have I done?

No worries, just post a thread here on SMF and tag us all. Done.

 

[Arimara]

The impatient might throw an eye on liquid soap instead of bar soap. If you have a sophisticated recipe, you can make soap from the oils to the dispenser bottle in three hours or less, and nobody will judge you for using soft oils or dairy butter.
It's just that a precise scale is even more important for LS than it is for bar soap.

ETA: Not wanting to distract from your actual inquiry, but sometimes a bit of a broader perspective can be helpful. A nutritionally healthy grocery store shelf just isn't a good place to find all ingredients for awesome bar soaps.

Dairy butter soap makes an incredibly stinky soap with no way of remedy for it. It truly becomes a wasted resource better left to some toasted or fresh baked bread at the least. Would I judge someone for using it? Yes, I would if I had to allow that person in my home or if, after the numerous complaints/warnings on here were ignored, they complain about their dairy butter soap.