Balancing cleansing and conditioning qualities

[lynnschmidt]

Hi Group, I'm Lynn and happy to be here.
I'm new to soap making. First experiences were hot processed free recipes. I now want to make my own for cold process and having some difficulty.
My first few recipe attempts are producing either high cleansing quality or high conditioning quality. Perhaps these are two different soaps? However, On the high cleansing soap I'm getting a 47 for conditioning and think it should be a little higher? The scale is from 44 - 69 for conditioning.
Any advise? Thank you much

 

[dixiedragon]

Welcome to the forum!

Recipes for hot process and cold process are the same, for the most part. The exceptions are if you are using a tricky ingredient, such as beeswax, or if you want to add "special" oil after the cook to preserve it in the final product.

If you share your recipes, we can give more specific advice.

Off the top of my head, the lower cleansing, lower your coconut. You may also want to try replacing coconut with palm kernel oil (not the same as palm oil).

IMO, lard makes a gentler bar than palm or tallow, so maybe try that if you haven't.

You may also want to try bumping up your superfat a bit. Maybe if you use 5%, try 8% or 10%.

Also, is your skin dry (over-cleansed) or is it irritated? You may want to try an unscented batch, because your skin could be reacting to fragrance.

Hope this helps!

 

[DeeAnna]

For the most part, if you lower "cleansing", you raise "conditioning". And vice versa. They're inter-related, so you'll drive yourself crazy if you try to make one change without the other one changing too. Also, don't take the names literally.

Here are more of my opinions about this topic: https://classicbells.com/soap/soapCalcNumbers.asp

 

[lynnschmidt]

Welcome to the forum!

Recipes for hot process and cold process are the same, for the most part. The exceptions are if you are using a tricky ingredient, such as beeswax, or if you want to add "special" oil after the cook to preserve it in the final product.

If you share your recipes, we can give more specific advice.

Off the top of my head, the lower cleansing, lower your coconut. You may also want to try replacing coconut with palm kernel oil (not the same as palm oil).

IMO, lard makes a gentler bar than palm or tallow, so maybe try that if you haven't.

You may also want to try bumping up your superfat a bit. Maybe if you use 5%, try 8% or 10%.

Also, is your skin dry (over-cleansed) or is it irritated? You may want to try an unscented batch, because your skin could be reacting to fragrance.

Hope this helps!

Thank you. I ended up printing this one:
30% coconut oil, 30% lard, 20% olive oil, 10% avocado oil, 5% cocoa butter, 5% shea butter.
47 hardness, 20 cleansing, 47 conditioning, 20 bubbly, 27 creamy, 51 iodine, 164 INS

 

[lynnschmidt]

For the most part, if you lower "cleansing", you raise "conditioning". And vice versa. They're inter-related, so you'll drive yourself crazy if you try to make one change without the other one changing too. Also, don't take the names literally.

Here are more of my opinions about this topic: https://classicbells.com/soap/soapCalcNumbers.asp

Thank you! I will read it. My eyes are buggy from being on the computer too long. I appreciate all advise

 

[KiwiMoose]

This is quite interesting too:https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/the-most-popular-fatty-acid-profiles-in-soapmaking/

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Hi Group, I'm Lynn and happy to be here.
I'm new to soap making. First experiences were hot processed free recipes. I now want to make my own for cold process and having some difficulty.
My first few recipe attempts are producing either high cleansing quality or high conditioning quality. Perhaps these are two different soaps? However, On the high cleansing soap I'm getting a 47 for conditioning and think it should be a little higher? The scale is from 44 - 69 for conditioning.
Any advise? Thank you much

Hi there! Welcome to the forum. I’m a relative newbie myself and I want to contribute another idea for you to consider. Rather than look at the “numbers” you get from the calculator, you can also decide what is most important to you in a soap Gentle soaps tend to be low in coconut oil (CO) or similar unless they are salt bars, which are an entirely different kind of soap. Consider trying to build the recipe with that in mind. I’ve learned that most of the recipes I found online used much more CO than many experienced use in the soaps they make for personal use. While my first generation of soaps had at least 30% CO, the max in the second generation is 20%. The first round of soaps was very bubbly and cleansing, but also a bit drying. That’s fine for washing hands, but not for my face and body. The 2nd gen soaps are mostly making a silky, creamy, lather that I personally would call luxurious, and they are much less stripping. These soaps are made with low CO and then various mixtures of Lard or Palm or butters like Shea, cocoa or mango, and then soft oils like olive oil, avocado oil, HO safflower, and then castor, to support the bubbles. Cutting down the CO may cut down on the big bubbles, but you can combat that by adding sugar to you soap. I don’t generally add sugar, but many others do. There are many lard fans on the forum and I am now in that camp. If you can’t get past an ick factor or other issues with animal fats, you can use palm or butters, or soy wax for hardness. I love the way avocado oil makes soap feel. Finally, salt bars break the rules. My salt bar has 80% CO and 18% SF.

I guess my main suggestion is to learn more about the properties of the oils and butters. You can pick some that sound good to you and then read the forum to get a better sense of how to combine them in the right proportions. You can post the recipe anytime and people will offer seasoned advice. For example, you can use a lot of lard, but with very high palm, butters, or wax the risk of producing a brittle bar of soap increases. Some of the soft oils, like avocado, are typically used in concentrations of only 10-20% in order to reduce the risk of DOS (rancidity) in the soap. At 10% or more they bring unique qualities to the recipe. Olive oil, which contributes to conditioning, can be used up to 100%. I use 20% to 100% in recipes.

I’m a numbers person by nature, but I have learned to let that go a little!

 

[dixiedragon]

Thank you. I ended up printing this one:
30% coconut oil, 30% lard, 20% olive oil, 10% avocado oil, 5% cocoa butter, 5% shea butter.
47 hardness, 20 cleansing, 47 conditioning, 20 bubbly, 27 creamy, 51 iodine, 164 INS

If you want to try that recipe, go for it. Just be aware that butters tend to make things thicken up fast.

 

[lynnschmidt]

If you want to try that recipe, go for it. Just be aware that butters tend to make things thicken up fast.

Thank you. Hmmm. This is where I got into trouble with hot process. My essential oils of choice have low flash points and it was difficult getting it into molds. This will be by first cold process. I'll only do a pound and see what happens, lol. This is only for me and family. I don't have a business. I did make sample sizes for 2 weddings (one family member, one friend) and had a lot of fun. A couple people wanted more. I said no. Maybe after experimenting for a while I'll do some wedding orders. I don't want to HAVE to do it. I like many crafts but feel the same way about them. I need to be in the mood.

 

[lynnschmidt]

Hi there! Welcome to the forum. I’m a relative newbie myself and I want to contribute another idea for you to consider. Rather than look at the “numbers” you get from the calculator, you can also decide what is most important to you in a soap Gentle soaps tend to be low in coconut oil (CO) or similar unless they are salt bars, which are an entirely different kind of soap. Consider trying to build the recipe with that in mind. I’ve learned that most of the recipes I found online used much more CO than many experienced use in the soaps they make for personal use. While my first generation of soaps had at least 30% CO, the max in the second generation is 20%. The first round of soaps was very bubbly and cleansing, but also a bit drying. That’s fine for washing hands, but not for my face and body. The 2nd gen soaps are mostly making a silky, creamy, lather that I personally would call luxurious, and they are much less stripping. These soaps are made with low CO and then various mixtures of Lard or Palm or butters like Shea, cocoa or mango, and then soft oils like olive oil, avocado oil, HO safflower, and then castor, to support the bubbles. Cutting down the CO may cut down on the big bubbles, but you can combat that by adding sugar to you soap. I don’t generally add sugar, but many others do. There are many lard fans on the forum and I am now in that camp. If you can’t get past an ick factor or other issues with animal fats, you can use palm or butters, or soy wax for hardness. I love the way avocado oil makes soap feel. Finally, salt bars break the rules. My salt bar has 80% CO and 18% SF.

I guess my main suggestion is to learn more about the properties of the oils and butters. You can pick some that sound good to you and then read the forum to get a better sense of how to combine them in the right proportions. You can post the recipe anytime and people will offer seasoned advice. For example, you can use a lot of lard, but with very high palm, butters, or wax the risk of producing a brittle bar of soap increases. Some of the soft oils, like avocado, are typically used in concentrations of only 10-20% in order to reduce the risk of DOS (rancidity) in the soap. At 10% or more they bring unique qualities to the recipe. Olive oil, which contributes to conditioning, can be used up to 100%. I use 20% to 100% in recipes.

I’m a numbers person by nature, but I have learned to let that go a little!

Hi! Thanks for the info. I did come to the conclusion that I need two very different soaps. My husband wants to get clean. He's not interested in beauty bar but I am. I saw spa bars with activated charcoal and kaolin clay. I use rosehip seed oil and argan oil on my face and neck (I'm 63 and daughter got me doing that) and a salt scrub on my neck in the shower so I think the spa bar would be nice.
I have been reading about the oils and butters and is why I chose Avocado oil. I did post my recipe in reply to another person's comment. The next three days here should be more favorable for making soap so I have everything ready for morning. I've heard high humidity can give unpredictable results so I thought better to wait.

 

[lynnschmidt]

Welcome to the forum!

Recipes for hot process and cold process are the same, for the most part. The exceptions are if you are using a tricky ingredient, such as beeswax, or if you want to add "special" oil after the cook to preserve it in the final product.

If you share your recipes, we can give more specific advice.

Off the top of my head, the lower cleansing, lower your coconut. You may also want to try replacing coconut with palm kernel oil (not the same as palm oil).

IMO, lard makes a gentler bar than palm or tallow, so maybe try that if you haven't.

You may also want to try bumping up your superfat a bit. Maybe if you use 5%, try 8% or 10%.

Also, is your skin dry (over-cleansed) or is it irritated? You may want to try an unscented batch, because your skin could be reacting to fragrance.

Hope this helps!

Yes, I will bump superfat to 8%. Thank you. I did share that I decided to make two different soaps. One more of a spa/beauty bar and one mainly for cleansing husband will like. He loves eucalyptus and lemongrass so his will be scented.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I hope you have fun and let us know how your soap turns out