alternative tallow recipes....

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CTAnton

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I've got a lot of deer tallow with sheep tallow on it's way from Ohio as we speak...and while I've been pleased with them; their long lasting qualities and their creaminess are great. They ARE shy on bubbles.So I've been playing on soap calc for WAAY too much time trying to crack the code on what it would take to get some bubbles in a mostly tallow and/or lard combination soap. I've got a lot of lard commercially purchased at a restaurant supply store. The best to date for bubbles on soap calc is a reading of 22 and a 36 for creaminess.
20% Tallow
35% Lard
15% Coconut
10% Palm Kernel Flakes
15%Rice Bran Oil
5% Castor
With 25% in the coconut and palm kernel flakes I worry about it being too stripping in my quest for bubbles...or is it simply a matter of upping the super fat to something around 8%? Or do I have to use more soft oils to better balance the saturated/unsaturated ratio? I am also not adverse to having a greater amount of tallow than lard but at least at the moment, I'm not seeing any dramatic difference between the 2 at this time...sorry lardinators...
Just looking for the collective intelligence of the forum...TIA!
 

lenarenee

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How much coconut do you usually like in your soap?

The thing with coconut and pko is that is strips your own oils first, then a high superfat supposedly recovers your skin. I don't like that feeling myself, it feels like oily, stripped skin to me.

Another thing; higher superfat reduces bubbles; ever try to wash greasy hands and wonder why you have to keep applying soap? That's why.

If you normally like a lower coconut oil soap, then maybe shoot for that, and experiment with sugar or sodium lactate for bubblage. If you have hard water then a citric acid or sodium citrate helps with bubbles.

When you say you don't see much difference between lard and tallow - are you comparing lard with beef tallow or sheep/deer tallow?
And have you used lard and tallow separately?
 

CTAnton

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I've actually NOT used lard a lot...when I say I see them as quite interchangeable I'm referring to their characteristics and being I'm after bubbles I don't think either lends themselves to that. I've got a lot of deer tallow from all the rendering I've done in earlier months. I'm also not looking forward to a high super fat that leaves a film on the skin. Personally, I love my high tallow bars...but I would like to see more bubbles. 20% coconut doesn't seem to be problematic to my skin but then again, it's not all about me...I'd like to keep my testers happy as well!
 

lenarenee

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By bubbles you mean the large happy bubbles? Yeah, lard doesn't make those; it makes a thick, rich (think voluminous creamy, not milky thin creamy like beef tallow).

It won't hurt to try a 25% co/pko soap to see what you think. And I've seen a few people talk about how pko is less stripping than coconut, so the recipe you mentioned might be a great one to try, given your goals.

I'm enjoying a 75% tallow, 10% coconut, 10 avocado and 5 castor in the shower this week. Not much of any kind of lather, but very gentle for dry warm winter weather. Plus, I like the very white color (no micas or fo's), and the crispness of the bar. Lard soaps are hard, but tallow is the kind of hard that doesn't soften much after lots of water.
 

CTAnton

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Of course its those large happy bubbles I'm after...LOL..I think I'll make a test batch today and see how it goes...and I will use all 3 additives...the sodium lactate, the sugar and the sodium citrate...I've used a 1Tbsp/ppo of sugar before...maybe I'll up the ante to 2...
 

shunt2011

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I have made a lard recipe very similar to yours and it's actually a great bar of soap. I did a 6% SF and used Coconut milk as a water replacement. I don't find it stripping nor greasy feeling at all. The only difference was I used Olive instead of rice bran and used all lard. As stated though lard/tallow give more of a creamy lather which I prefer. Though it does bubble too.
 

Susie

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I prefer the dense, creamy lather of lard (who would have guessed, right?) to other oils, but I must say that the best lather I have gotten from my soap is one that looks close to this:

Lard 35%
GV shortening 30%
Coconut Oil 15%
Olive Oil 15%
Castor Oil 5%

NaOH 95%
KOH 5%

Honey 2 Tablespoons/PPO

Superfat 5%

It had lots of happy bubbles, with a high foam, and retained that creamy lather base that I love.

I think had I been younger when I started making soap, I would have preferred more tallow and palm in my soap. But this post-menopausal skin needs all the help it can get to not feel stripped.
 

BrewerGeorge

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I prefer the dense, creamy lather of lard (who would have guessed, right?) to other oils, but I must say that the best lather I have gotten from my soap is one that looks close to this:

Lard 35%
GV shortening 30%
Coconut Oil 15%
Olive Oil 15%
Castor Oil 5%

NaOH 95%
KOH 5%

Honey 2 Tablespoons/PPO

Superfat 5%

It had lots of happy bubbles, with a high foam, and retained that creamy lather base that I love.
....
This is my soap, though the percentages are tweaked to make room for a 5% avocado and I don't use KOH in bar soap. I think this combination of oils is like a perfect "everything soap." With palm, tallow and lard for hard oils, all boxes are check and it will lather however you want it to lather. Be rough with it and get big bubbles. Use a brush or washcloth and get creamy bubbles. And it's got glycerin enough to make a 2 ft bubble (in softened water, anyway).
 

Susie

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This is my soap, though the percentages are tweaked to make room for a 5% avocado and I don't use KOH in bar soap. I think this combination of oils is like a perfect "everything soap." With palm, tallow and lard for hard oils, all boxes are check and it will lather however you want it to lather. Be rough with it and get big bubbles. Use a brush or washcloth and get creamy bubbles. And it's got glycerin enough to make a 2 ft bubble (in softened water, anyway).
That measly 5% KOH makes a huge difference in the size of the bubbles. It really does. I have played with every percentage of GV shortening (palm and tallow have to be ordered, and I go to Walmart every week) from 5% to 55% to the lard, with and without the KOH. And the 5% KOH improves the bubble size on every change. I use a standard 6 week cure for every soap so that I can test fairly. And yes, I give away a LOT of soap! I have 42 bars going out today.
 

DeeAnna

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I second Susie's advice about adding a titch of KOH to recipes high in lard, tallow, or palm or recipes high in oleic fats such as olive, avocado, high oleic sunflower, HO safflower, etc. I notice a distinct difference in the KOH-NaOH versions vs. the NaOH only versions. Here are examples of recipes I've been making lately that benefit from the KOH:

30% avocado
70% HO sunflower
(Yeah, I know it's a weird recipe, but it's intended for use in the craft of wet felting, not for cleaning the body)

15% CO
25% HO sunflower
60% lard

15% CO
85% lard
 

CTAnton

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many thanks everyone! i did a KOH/NAOH hybrid that was a bastille right after the New Year. I'm going to give it a good 3 months before I pass judgment...but upon recommendations made here I'll try the same with this batch...again, so many thanks!
 

sudsy_kiwi

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Quick question...Is "GV shortening" a brand name, ie just something Americans are likely to have access to, or does it refer to a type of shortening, but not brand-specific?

I can get tubs of shortening at my local supermarket, and according to the label they are "100% beef shortening". I assume that's the same as 100% beef tallow?
 

DeeAnna

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GV stands for Great Value. That is the house brand for Walmart.

Beef shortening is basically tallow, yes.
 
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earlene

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Well, Walmart also sells in Mexico and I saw many of the same brands in Walmart there as I do here, so I am not so sure it is only available in the US.

These are the ingredients per Walmart:

Ingredients: Ingredients: Beef Tallow, Palm Oil, Vegetable Mono- And Diglycerides, BHA, Propyl Gallate And Citric Acid Added To Protect Flavor, Dimethylpolysiloxane, An Anti-Foaming Agent Added.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Value-Shortening-42-oz/10451501#about-item

Also more about the GV brand:

The Great Value brand can also be seen in Canada, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Mexico, Argentina, Chile and Brazil and some Trust Mart stores in Xi'an, Shaanxi Province, China, through a partnership with Walmart. (wikipedia)
 
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Gerry

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I've never seen GV shortening at Walmart anywhere I've lived in Canada. Here even the word "shortening" is usually associated with the vegetable only variety, so the addition of tallow would throw a lot of people off.

Now at my nearest Walmart we do have GV guinea pig food, GV iodized table salt, GV pudding cups, etc. etc... I wonder if there's something about the GV shortening in particular that makes it unsaleable here?
 

CTAnton

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For me personally they USED to carry the GV shortening at my local Walmart. Thats no longer the case. I'm presuming it's still available at the Super Walmart a good 45 minutes away...something on the news about free shipping for Walmart productsto compete with amazon...
 

earlene

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I know. I find it annoying that Walmart is as inconsistent as they are from one store to the next even in the same city sometimes. But even more so from one state to the next. It makes shopping for some things when traveling a little more troublesome than one would expect.
 

redhead1226

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I prefer the dense, creamy lather of lard (who would have guessed, right?) to other oils, but I must say that the best lather I have gotten from my soap is one that looks close to this:

Lard 35%
GV shortening 30%
Coconut Oil 15%
Olive Oil 15%
Castor Oil 5%

NaOH 95%
KOH 5%

Honey 2 Tablespoons/PPO

Superfat 5%

It had lots of happy bubbles, with a high foam, and retained that creamy lather base that I love.

I think had I been younger when I started making soap, I would have preferred more tallow and palm in my soap. But this post-menopausal skin needs all the help it can get to not feel stripped.

Susie - Can you please tell me how to calculate the water for the 2 lye recipe? I think I know how - but just want to check to make sure.
 

CTAnton

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while I'm not Susie Redhead tree's a soap calculator at soapee.com that does all the work for you...it's what I used to make my dual lye soap today and while I'm so comfortable at soap calc I've got to say it's the one to use for dual lye recipes..let us know if you have any difficulty navigating it...DeeAnna helped me when I couldn't figure something out...time to return the favor...
 

cherrycoke216

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