All-vegetable recipe

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holga_me

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Hi! I want to get some comments on this recipe ( what`s good and what`s not so). I`ve been happy with it so far, very hard bar, good leather, too thick to do any swirls, but thats not my biggest concern for this recipe. One of the suppliers told me to reduce palm oil, as it could fractionate and I might end up with more superfat than 5%. :confused: I`m not sure what they mean by that, butut I know that I melt my palm oil by the whole bucket, and then keep it warm at all the time in the melter, so it`s all mixed very well. What is your thoughts on that?

Castor 5%
Coconut 76 deg 20%
Olive 20%
Palm 45%
Cocoa butter 5%
Shea butter 5%

SF 5%
Lye solution 33%

I`m also planning to add Rosemary oleoresin (5% carsonic acid) at 0.5% of oil weight.

Is this a decent all-veggie recipe? Any advise to improve it without using animal fats?

Thank you!
 

shunt2011

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Looks great to me as well.
 

lenarenee

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A supplier told you palm oil could "fractionate" and thereby increase superfat?

Who is the supplier?

When palm oil often needs to be melted completely, followed by a thorough mixing before measuring out for your recipe. But that is to ensure that all components are mixed in - some are heavier and sink to the bottom as the oil cools and hardens back up.

Does this change the superfat to any problematic level? I don't believe so - at least not to a problematic level if you use a standard 5% superfat. But let's hear from the more experienced soapers on that. ( I don't use palm oil any more)
 

topofmurrayhill

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One of the suppliers told me to reduce palm oil, as it could fractionate and I might end up with more superfat than 5%. :confused: I`m not sure what they mean by that, butut I know that I melt my palm oil by the whole bucket, and then keep it warm at all the time in the melter, so it`s all mixed very well. What is your thoughts on that?
The importance of mixing palm oil is overblown. Palm oil will never fractionate on its own in your bucket to the extent that it is fractionated on purpose industrially. One of the typical products that comes out of the industrial first fractionation of palm is a liquid oil called palm olein 56. That palm olein is still so similar to whole palm oil that you could use it in your soap and hardly notice the difference. It's understandable to think that your soap could be affected by using a portion of your palm oil that is too liquid or too solid, but it probably doesn't really happen.

Having said that, it's probably true that this recipe is too high in palm oil, or more specifically palmitic acid. And it would actually feel better on the skin with more coconut oil. I've made soaps with this level of saturated fat innumerable times and trying to make them milder by reducing coconut oil has never worked. It just unbalances the recipe.

Castor oil doesn't produce lather or "stabilize" it (whatever that means). It makes your soap more soluble, so you will get more of whatever kind of lather your soap is inclined to produce. 5% castor in a recipe like this is a great idea or the lather would be kinda meh. But the more balanced formula will also give you a nicely balanced lather. Otherwise it would still be kinda slow to bubble.

Look at the fatty acids in these two charts. The top one is your recipe. The bottom is what I would consider a better balance. All I've done is distribute the saturated fatty acids differently, but notice what changes in the oils that required.



 

holga_me

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Thank you all for replies, especially @topofmurrayhill for such a detailed advise and your recipe, I`m gonna try to make that one and see if I like it better.

@dixiedragon it does traces fast, but I`ve done it so many times, so learned to work fast with it even with most florals

It`s all started with me contacting them about ROE usage, and then they asked for my formula and told me that I don't need roe with oils I use for this recipe. And my superfat might not what I think is, because high palm might fractionate + roe has a sap value that I didn't know, but at a percentage of 0.5% shouldn`t it be matter? (and if it is, that would make up a lower, not a higher SF). Anyway, I`m gonna try suggested recipe, as it does seem really good on qualities.

@lenarenee i can PM you about supplier. As of melting a palm oil - I buy it in large buckets, so i drop whole bucket in the melter and melt it at 120-130 F every time I masterbatch
 

topofmurrayhill

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It`s all started with me contacting them about ROE usage, and then they asked for my formula and told me that I don't need roe with oils I use for this recipe. And my superfat might not what I think is, because high palm might fractionate + roe has a sap value that I didn't know, but at a percentage of 0.5% shouldn`t it be matter? (and if it is, that would make up a lower, not a higher SF). Anyway, I`m gonna try suggested recipe, as it does seem really good on qualities.
Are you using a big wax melter like the candlemakers?

You can benefit from ROE at a rate as low as 0.1%. But I agree with your conclusion that any fat content is irrelevant even at 0.5%.

Stabilizers aren't just for soaps made with inappropriate oils. They are also for those who have made sound oil decisions and want to enhance the stability and professionalism of their product. You don't know how long the soap will be around and what it will be subjected to after it leaves your hands. And it can gradually discolor over time even if it doesn't get spots.

It think with 0.1% EDTA in your water and 0.1% ROE in your oils you can have peace of mind. Those substances work individually and work especially well in combination. EDTA deactivates any metal ions in your water that can be seeds for a chain reaction of oxidation.

BTW, why should a chemical process like DOS occur in patches like an infection or a disease? I suspect it's because of that chain reaction effect, so something sets it off in one spot and it spreads from there. An antioxidant like ROE acts to stop that.
 

holga_me

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@topofmurrayhill

I`m using primo50 wax melter, so convenient and energy efficient, I`m very happy with it.

I live in such a humid environment, definitely want to make it safe and use antioxidant. There is also a lot of competition here and from what I see on the labels, most of them don`t use EDTA. I`m gonna try ROE first and see if it makes the difference. One thing I notice is that UV light and outside conditions like rain and high humidity ruin the soap pretty fast in Florida, while the same bars that been kept inside last for year and still no dos. So its mostly about how you store it .
 

TeresaT

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<<spooky hypnotic voice>> COME TO THE LARD SIDE...COME...COME...COME TO THE LARD SIDE...
 

topofmurrayhill

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@topofmurrayhill

I`m using primo50 wax melter, so convenient and energy efficient, I`m very happy with it.

I live in such a humid environment, definitely want to make it safe and use antioxidant. There is also a lot of competition here and from what I see on the labels, most of them don`t use EDTA. I`m gonna try ROE first and see if it makes the difference. One thing I notice is that UV light and outside conditions like rain and high humidity ruin the soap pretty fast in Florida, while the same bars that been kept inside last for year and still no dos. So its mostly about how you store it .
The brass parts on the melter increase your DOS risk a fair amount. Copper is an excellent catalyst for oil oxidation, and unfortunately it's the EDTA that would address that issue more directly than ROE, which only deals with the horses after they're out of the barn. Take a look at this:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=58393
 

fuzz-juzz

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Can you source Rice bran oil at all?
It's a great sub for olive oil, in fact, it's even better. I lowered OO in all my recipes and swapped it with Rice bran.
I use it in higher % than palm. I keep OO at about 15, palm on 15-18 and rice bran above 20.
Difference in lather is amazing.
 

KristaY

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I think your recipe looks just fine. I use palm in most of my recipes because I don't use lard or tallow but I usually keep it at about 30%. Maybe try that and make up the difference with OO or another soft oil like avocado or high oleic canola/sunflower. I've found using about 50% hard oils and 50% soft give me more time to do swirls and work with badly behaved FO's like florals and water scents. I also soap at about 105 degrees so I don't run into a false trace.
 

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