All Natural conundrum

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Todd Ziegler

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I have created a foaming hand soap that is 99% all natural. The 1% that cannot be called natural is the preservative, liquid germall plus. For my formula I have a natural alternative which is Leucidal® SF Max. The conundrum that I have is that I don't have as much experience/faith with the leucidal as I do with the germall. So I was wondering if the all natural label is worth the increased stability testing that I would have to pay to have done and the increase in cost. The germall can be used at 0.1 - 0.5% and the leucidal requires 3% in my formula.

Any opinions are appreciated.
 

jcandleattic

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If it were me (and this is just me) I'd rather have peace of mind with GMP. In my own personal opinion, "all-natural" or "organic" doesn't necessarily equate "wonderful, good for you". (Think Hemlock, arsenic, poison oak/ivy - all are natural and organic, none are good for you)

But besides all that, as stated, GMP has a known outcome, you know it is going to work, etc.,
There is my .02 - take it for what it is worth to you.
 

AliOop

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I think it really depends on your target market.

How much do they care about being all-natural? Yes, you have to stick with your own ethics, but you also have to consider whether there is a market for what you are contemplating.

And if there is, are they willing to pay more for that, since your costs will go up?

ETA: and now, between @jcandleattic and I, you are 4¢ richer. ;)
 

Todd Ziegler

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If it were me (and this is just me) I'd rather have peace of mind with GMP. In my own personal opinion, "all-natural" or "organic" doesn't necessarily equate "wonderful, good for you". (Think Hemlock, arsenic, poison oak/ivy - all are natural and organic, none are good for you)

But besides all that, as stated, GMP has a known outcome, you know it is going to work, etc.,
There is my .02 - take it for what it is worth to you.
I completely agree with what you said. I always use copper as the example.

I think what I am going to do, is stay with the GMP but bring with me when I set up at the farmers/craft market/shows a little bit made with the leucidal and see how they sell side by side. I can separate a small amount from the batch and add the separate preservatives to each batch.

My foaming hand soap is selling really well and that is despite the fact that it cost more than Walmart. My original intention was to use it as a way to draw customers to my bar soap by giving them a 1 ounce bottle with a large purchase of my bar soap but it has taken off on its own.
 

Zany_in_CO

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I have created a foaming hand soap that is 99% all natural. The 1% that cannot be called natural is the preservative, liquid germall plus.
Properly made and fully saponified, DIY liquid soap requires no preservative.
I've been making LS since 2004 and never used preservative. Neither does Dr. Bronner's all natural LS and every other all natural LS out there that I've checked the ingredients for preservative over the years.

Even my Foamer tests at pH 10 - 10.5. which means, it doesn't require a preservative because nasties don't survive in an alkaline environment, as I understand it.

I made LS for two different wholesale customers for a while. No preservative; no problem. The only problem was it didn't sell well. So I'm happy to hear that isn't the case in your situation. ;)

@DeeAnna discusses the use of preservatives in LS here.

Faith of Alaiyna's Blog covers it here

HTH
 

Todd Ziegler

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Properly made and fully saponified, DIY liquid soap requires no preservative.
I've been making LS since 2004 and never used preservative. Neither does Dr. Bronner's all natural LS and every other all natural LS out there that I've checked the ingredients for preservative over the years.

Even my Foamer tests at pH 10 - 10.5. which means, it doesn't require a preservative because nasties don't survive in an alkaline environment, as I understand it.

I made LS for two different wholesale customers for a while. No preservative; no problem. The only problem was it didn't sell well. So I'm happy to hear that isn't the case in your situation. ;)

@DeeAnna discusses the use of preservatives in LS here.

Faith of Alaiyna's Blog covers it here

HTH
Thanks
 

lsg

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After setting for several months, my diluted liquid soap developed a layer of mold, even with preservative. I always recommend using a preservative when water is added to the formula. IMO, it is better to be safe than sorry.:)
 

The Efficacious Gentleman

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I have also had LS develop mold, so I always preserved mine. Because of the use of Lye I have never considered soap "All Natural."
I have to land here in general when it comes to this topic - lye is a naturally occurring substance, of course, but I doubt that your lye was. It was produced by people using processes.

Edit to add - while the majority of the substances in my lotions are found naturally in the natural nature, my lotions are not naturally occurring.........

So in answer to the original question, yes you can say it. Because the term "all natural" in relation to what we do is mostly a nonsense and rather meaningless. But that is also the reason why I would never consider using the term on ay of my products
 

Todd Ziegler

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After setting for several months, my diluted liquid soap developed a layer of mold, even with preservative. I always recommend using a preservative when water is added to the formula. IMO, it is better to be safe than sorry.:)
I agree with you. I'm definitely going to use a preservative. The last thing that I want is for someone to become sick from using my products. Since my selling is just getting started, I would hate for to end all of a sudden because I thought I would be ok without a preservative.

I really think creating 2 different products for the time is the best way to discover how well leucidal works.

I would only have to raise the price by about 50¢ - 75¢ per bottle. I have 3 different sizes for them to choose from and right now, no one is complaining about the price, at least not to me directly.
I have also had LS develop mold, so I always preserved mine. Because of the use of Lye I have never considered soap "All Natural."
I really used the wrong word because I agree with what you are saying. My ingredients are not naturally occurring in nature as they are. The better description would be that no synthetics were used to make the ingredients. A better choice would be that my product is not synthetic and is earth friendly.
This reminded me of a tv ad that has been on recently by a well known body products company. Said something like “99% natural, 1% for safety/stability.” ;) Kinda sounds about right
I definitely want to have that 1%. However I don't advertise as 99% natural but I like that tag line.
 

Todd Ziegler

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I have to land here in general when it comes to this topic - lye is a naturally occurring substance, of course, but I doubt that your lye was. It was produced by people using processes.

Edit to add - while the majority of the substances in my lotions are found naturally in the natural nature, my lotions are not naturally occurring.........

So in answer to the original question, yes you can say it. Because the term "all natural" in relation to what we do is mostly a nonsense and rather meaningless. But that is also the reason why I would never consider using the term on ay of my products
Thanks. I am very hesitant using the term "all natural" for the reasons that you mentioned. What I thought about doing is going with the term "earth friendly" or "green". However I would love to come up with a short description which explains what my product is in relation to "natural".

The county south of me is a money maker but they are very hung up on words like "natural" or "organic" and it is very difficult to convince them otherwise.
 

The Efficacious Gentleman

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That can be an issue.

Is there any sort of trading standards group over there for these sorts of marketing topics? In many European countries there are officially defined terms - even if people understand it as meaning something else, you are fine to use it as long as you meet the official definition.
 

Todd Ziegler

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That can be an issue.

Is there any sort of trading standards group over there for these sorts of marketing topics? In many European countries there are officially defined terms - even if people understand it as meaning something else, you are fine to use it as long as you meet the official definition.
That is an excellent question. I know there are trade groups who attempt to define certain words, phrases and terminology but they have no way to enforce a penalty for those who break their rules. Other than denying their endorsement or revoking their membership. Plus each group has their own criteria for defining their own objectives and standards.

The government has regulations for the safety and use of certain ingredients but they don't give much guidance for things like, what is considered a natural ingredient or when you can call some thing natural. You can be punished for making medical claims without the testing to prove it but even that can be skirted around. They will determine what is safe, how much can be added safely and things like that. All the ingredients that I use are not synthetic but they are not what they started life as either.

I think I like the phrase, "99% natural & 1% for your safety" it really is the best description of my formula. I also thought about "99% earth safe & 1% for your safety". I just want to be able to make an honest claim with the least amount of confusion. Right now, at least 75% of my sales are based on my honesty with regard to the claims that I make about how my products will perform. It would be easy to shade the truth and it not be false or an outright lie but that is not an option for me. I want to be as honest as possible. Meaning I want to make sure that my claim is the most honest based on what I currently know. Does any of that make sense.

I also want to say, just how cool it is, that I am talking to people all over the world right now. I love technology.
 

Zany_in_CO

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FWIW: I have nothing but annecdotal information about the use of preservatives in LS. I don't know the science of it, but I feel I should mention that a SCIENCE member of the LS Yahoo Group explained what can happen if preservative is used in LS. (1) It gets stinky about 3-6 months later (IME) (2) It morphs the composition where chemicals that you don't want on your skin come into play. I'm truly sorry I didn't save that post.
it is better to be safe than sorry
With all due respect, I hear that all the time from soapers who are unaware of the damage they may be causing when adding a preservative to a product for which no preservative as yet has been formulated specifically for LS. You'd think if one was REQUIRED, one would be invented. :smallshrug:

I apologize in advance to those who may feel offended by my statement. But that is just my thinking based on my extensive experience. I mean only to inform. What you do with the information is totally up to you. :)
 

Todd Ziegler

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FWIW: I have nothing but annecdotal information about the use of preservatives in LS. I don't know the science of it, but I feel I should mention that a SCIENCE member of the LS Yahoo Group explained what can happen if preservative is used in LS. (1) It gets stinky about 3-6 months later (IME) (2) It morphs the composition where chemicals that you don't want on your skin come into play. I'm truly sorry I didn't save that post.

With all due respect, I hear that all the time from soapers who are unaware of the damage they may be causing when adding a preservative to a product for which no preservative as yet has been formulated specifically for LS. You'd think if one was REQUIRED, one would be invented. :smallshrug:

I apologize in advance to those who may feel offended by my statement. But that is just my thinking based on my extensive experience. I mean only to inform. What you do with the information is totally up to you. :)
I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. My foaming hand soap is not made with any kind of lye. It is strictly surfactants with water and a couple of other ingredients. I don't want to list my ingredients for all to see but I would not call it a liquid hand soap.
 

ImpKit

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I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. My foaming hand soap is not made with any kind of lye. It is strictly surfactants with water and a couple of other ingredients. I don't want to list my ingredients for all to see but I would not call it a liquid hand soap.
I was unaware of there being natural surfactants? I thought all of them were considering synthetics?
 

Todd Ziegler

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I was unaware of there being natural surfactants? I thought all of them were considering synthetics?
There are several non synthetic derivative surfactants and emulsifiers. Formulators sample shop carries many and that is where I get mine.
 

Zany_in_CO

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My foaming hand soap is not made with any kind of lye. It is strictly surfactants with water and a couple of other ingredients. I don't want to list my ingredients for all to see but I would not call it a liquid hand soap.
Oh geez. You're right. My bad. I had no idea. Thank you for mentioning that.
I have created a foaming hand soap that is 99% all natural.
That's what through me off. 😁

FYI: On this forum, "all natural" means lye-based soap made from scratch vs. syndets. So now I think we need a new, more specific definition for your products. In the future, you might mention that your all natural stuff is made with ingredients from The Formulators Sample Shop. That way we will know what you're talking about and how to best help you. ;)
...or, as in my case, stay out of the discussion all together. 🤭 🤣
 

AliOop

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FYI: On this forum, "all natural" means lye-based soap made from scratch vs. syndets.
My understanding is that "soap" is defined on this forum as lye-based soap without syndets.

The term "all natural" is something else altogether, and ostensibly refers to the source of the ingredients, as well as their level of processing. As Carolyn noted in her earlier post, anyone who uses lab-produced lye probably should not refer to their soap as "all natural."

Then again, it's not like olive oil, coconut oil or any other soaping oil or EO drips directly out of the tree, seed, or plant into the oil container, either. Since they all require some form of processing, are they really "natural"?

Unfortunately, we have no standard definition for what level of processing crosses the line from "natural" into "synthetic." That's why I don't fuss over it much, and don't really argue with anyone who wants to call their product "natural." Far be it from me to impose my definition on someone else who feels differently about what is safe for them.

@Todd Ziegler I have great respect for your integrity and your desire to be forthcoming. Your proposed slogan is perfect for that, and will probably spark conversations where you can explain that there are health risks to not using preservatives, which is why you have chosen to go the preservative route - and to be upfront about it so that folks can make their own decisions.
 
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