Advice on recipe

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gww

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I am thinking of this being my next try but am only tied into the oils I have on hand and not the percentages in the soap. Suggestions to make better would be welcome. I also wonder if I am pushing for too low of a super fat. I am curious of what I might end up with. Here it is.
SoapCalc ©Recipe Name: New Print Recipe
Total oil weight​
40 oz​
Water as percent of oil weight​
29.04 %​
Super Fat/Discount​
2 %​
Lye Concentration​
33.0000 %​
Water : Lye Ratio​
2.0303:1​
Sat : Unsat Ratio​
48 : 52​
Iodine​
49​
INS​
157​
Fragrance Ratio​
0​
Fragrance Weight​
0.00 oz​

Pounds
Ounces
Grams
Water​
0.72611.62329.31
Lye - NaOH
0.3585.72162.20
Oils​
2.50040.001,133.98
Fragrance​
0.0000.000.00
Soap weight before CP cure or HP cook More info 3.58457.341,625.49

#
Oil/Fat​
%​
Pounds
Ounces
Grams
1​
Castor Oil​
5.000.1252.0056.70
2​
Coconut Oil, 76 deg​
15.000.3756.00170.10
3​
Crisco, new w/palm​
5.000.1252.0056.70
4​
Lard, Pig Tallow Manteca​
55.001.37522.00623.69
5​
Tallow Deer​
20.000.5008.00226.80
Totals100.002.50040.001,133.98

Soap Bar Quality
Range
Your Recipe
Hardness
29 - 54​
45​
Cleansing
12 - 22​
11​
Conditioning
44 - 69​
48​
Bubbly
14 - 46​
15​
Creamy
16 - 48​
39​
Iodine
41 - 70​
49​
INS
136 - 165​
157​
Lauric7
Myristic4
Palmitic22
Stearic13
Ricinoleic5
Oleic
34​
Linoleic9
Linolenic1

Additives​
Notes​
2 tbl sugar and 28 g sodium citrate

Thank you
gww
 

ResolvableOwl

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Looks good! Lowering SF to 2% (or lower) is absolutely fine as long as you can ensure it really is still positive. Self-rendered tallow is a bit of an unknown here (residual water content? variation of FA profile with life conditions of the animals? etc.), but at 20% I'd say the risk is minor. Less than ideal lye purity might help you out there as well. Make a zap test after a week to reassure.

The one thing that I don't quite get is the Crisco. Add it if you want so, but I personally wouldn't bother adding an unspectactular industrial shortening, and then just 5% of it. I'd leave it out, or replace it by canola/olive/sunflower oil.
 

gww

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resolvableowl
There is zero water in the tallow, I am pretty sure but I did clean some bacon grease and mix it with about a lbs of armour lard and it could have a bit but figured since I melted it and then let it set up, if I take from the top, I am thinking good till I take the time to boil out the water on what would be left. The crisco is just something that my mom gave me half a can of and I figured it might stretch my other oils so I could make more then just one batch of something. I am not hung up on it and could get rid of it if it might cause issue. The lye has only been opened one time and is new and I am guessing pretty pure. Maybe I will raise the super fat to three or more? just to be a little safer. Thank you for your always excellent and concise answers.

lsg
I have been melting the sugar and the sodium citrate in some water reduced from what I dissolve the lye in and have been adding it to my oils before adding the lye. I have noticed no issue. Does my process not give what I am trying to get by adding these things?
Thanks
gww
 

ResolvableOwl

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OK, in case you want to use up the Crisco, you might even raise it to 10% (but not much more). In the next batch 🙃.

My immediate advice then is to make the soap exactly like in your initial post.
Cheers!
 

TheGecko

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My first suggestion is that you start with a smaller batch. When trying a new recipe, scent, colorant or additive I make a test batch with 13.5oz of oils in my 4" Square Mold...gives me 4-5 oz bars. I'm a bit stubborn so it me a bit to figure it out...the soap that shattered, the GMS that overcooked, the FO that accelerated into concrete; 150 oz of ingredients that ended up in the trash.

I don't know about the Sodium Citrate, but that's a lot of sugar. General rule of thumb is 1 Teaspoon PPO (per pound of oils); so for that size batch, I wouldn't go over a single tablespoon.

Your recipe is 95% Hard Oils; having a long lasting bar of soap is one thing, but having a bar of soap that you can't wash with (get you clean) is just a paperweight.
 

gww

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TheGecko
That's funny cause my wife told me I was stupid for making such small batches. I did notice my pure lard bar seems to be lasting longer then my lard, coconut, castor oil bar. I do get your point and my first five batches where 19.2 ounce batches cause it turned out to fit the shoe box I was using for a mold.

I do hate waste and I do really want something usable but also am just playing with stuff that I have access to. Since all my oils except castor and coconut are basically hand me downs, my real loss would be lye and sodium citrate if it turns out not usable. I made a new mold that dictated I up my batch to 30 ounces to use it and I figured I would take a chance with the extra ten ounces in individual molds for the heck of it. I do not want to throw it away but am going to only give it away if it works and so don't see much difference in the big picture except my family might get something if it works and won't is it don't.

The above is not to discount your very good point but more that I have made a few and feel that the risk of loss is not the end of the world though I hope for better. I am working with hard oils cause I don't have to go to the store and spend money to do so. Just trying to have fun with what I have access to. Please feel free to call me stupid on this and all my post cause that is where my experience level is and I do get real value out of your comments and hope to keep them coming. I even do listen sometimes.
Thanks
gww

Ps Up to now in previous batches I have been using one tbl sugar per twenty ounces of oil. I do not know where I came up with this but do know it came from this site and reading. I was a creature of habit and so have been just rinse and repeating since using it for the very first time.
 

TheGecko

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@gww - You're wife is wrong and you can tell I said that. LOL

I rarely call anyone stupid...obtuse is better as it doesn't fall under 'name calling'. ;) But 'stupid' IMHO is thinking you don't have to cure your soap or not using a soap calculator or being deliberately ignorant about your craft...which actually goes beyond 'stupid' and is dangerous.
 

ResolvableOwl

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I have the urge to clarify some things, lol.

First, batch size. I didn't even look on it, only percentages 🤫. It depends on what you're aiming for. If you want to squeeze the maximum number of soap bars out of a work-hour, then it'd be obvious to scale up things as far as you're comfortable with. But if you're learning, fine-tuning a recipe and/or testing new oils (which you're doing), then this is fine, or you could even scale down by a factor of two or three.

Then, the “hard oils” thingie that @TheGecko mentioned. It's a matter of convention how to classify oils, and how strictly to adhere to the countless rules of thumbs out there. The “hard oils” guidelines are no exception. For sure, a soap from 95% cocoa butter or soy wax will be literally rock hard and unusable as-is, but does that mean that a 75% lard + 20% CO soap will be too hard as well? It isn't even generally agreed upon, if CO and lauric oils do count as hard oils or not. Even less so the Crisco (SoapCalc models it as 75% soybean + 25% palm oil). Too many uncertainties, that really only the FA profile can tackle satisfactorily. Your recipe is definitely on the harder side, but nothing to worry about. That's why I didn't intervene there.

And wrt sugar, I don't have much experience with (table) sugar, and the ~3% TOW don't appear alarmingly high to me. It'll soften the soap, yes, but that's okay with your rather hard recipe. I do have experience with 16% TOW sugar (in an otherwise very soft recipe), and can assure you that this was too much of a good thing. 😙🎶
 

gww

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Thegecko
being deliberately ignorant about your craft...
I can not say this might not be the case but I do read a lot but that is no guarantee of understanding. It does not matter which word or diplomatic phrase is used, I would not take offence at this point in my evolution to any who might express what they may honestly see in me. I do not mind when people point out what they see and always appreciate it when their pointing it out Is done with good will in an effort to help me.
Thanks

Resolvebleowl
I am not experimenting for things I want to repeat in this. I am making "one off" recipes that I hope I get something from using what I have on hand now but will not have on hand to keep repeating. My previous lard, 20% coconut and 5% castor would be my most repeatable cause It is easy access oils. I have been more batch sizing based on tools, like size of the mold I made more then how the soap turns out. You always give me what I need in my reasons for asking and I am a little like the honey badger, You know, honey badger don't care. Don't get me wrong, I hope for usability for those I love but an not interested in creating a job for myself but more a hobby that does not seem totally wasteful. It is like my bees, I make about ten gal a year. I could work harder and make more but get what I need with a sustainable hobby. I had a job for thirty years that I retired from and like my hobbies to come out even so I can keep doing them but not have them draw resources from me that mean I need another job to support them. This site has been great to me so far.
Cheers
gww

Zany
I have read over and over on here about oak moss. Me being a diy type person, I even looked up on how to try and make it for myself. I am cheap though and unless everyone revolts from the gifts I give them so they do not get used, I will probably be too cheap to follow through. This may seem funny to some but I know that making stuff on my own is not cost effective. I can not make a lard coconut bar cheaper then I can buy a bar of irish spring but I also spend small amounts at a time and so can keep doing a process that I enjoy. I made spaghettis sauce one time and started with a five gal pot of tomatoes and ended up with three quarts and that was even too much for me when you could buy a bottle of prego for a buck fifty. Still, it does not seem to be so bad if you can come close and all you really lose is time and you find it interesting. I may still break down and buy oak moss some day cause it was one thing that I did find very interesting and is also one thing you can not just boil and collect the oil from the top of the water.
Thanks for the comment and your view of oak moss.
Cheers
gww

Ok
It is in the mold. Couple of things. One, I actually could smell the deer tallow today. It is hard as wax and dry though. I did rush one thing that I should have been more careful of and then compensated for it in the mix and so if it is bad, it is defiantly not due to advice from here but more a sloppy habit from me. The last thing I added was the 22 oz of lard which was part bought lard and part bacon grease. It turned out that it was wet and should have had the water cooked out of it.

Now I do not know if I am on the right track or not but I pushed forward when I probably should have addressed it even though my lye was hydrated and the rest of the oils were measured. My thought patterns are that I had a small discount of water compared to the calculators default 38 percent and I had made soap at default and it was ok. Second, I added two extra ounces of the wet lard to add fat which if I half understand would have put me at a 7 percent superfast if I were using dry lard with no extra water in it. I will defiantly need to zap test in a week or two. It went to trace in a normal to fast time though I did not go to as thick as I normally go to make pouring in molds a little easier. It did not seem uncontrollable fast but was normal or a little faster.

It looks good in the mold if not quite as white as I normally see but smooth and consistent. My gut is that it is going to be perfect and probably not have more smell then most of my lard or bacon grease bars have had in the past as I can always smell a tiny bit but saponification seems to get rid of most.

Of course time will tell, first with how long it takes to cut and then how it acts after cure. As you can see by how I handled the wet lard, I am not patient and waiting is so hard. Hope I don't end up being my owns worst enemy.

Thanks for the help so far and I may post one more with a picture or two later or some kind of report so I do not leave anyone who helped hanging.
Cheers
gww
 

Zany_in_CO

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Thanks for the help so far and I may post one more with a picture or two later or some kind of report so I do not leave anyone who helped hanging.
So looking forward to pics! Thank you for your thoughtfulness. Let the waiting begin...
Pacing Cat.gif
 

TheGecko

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I can not say this might not be the case but I do read a lot but that is no guarantee of understanding. It does not matter which word or diplomatic phrase is used, I would not take offence at this point in my evolution to any who might express what they may honestly see in me. I do not mind when people point out what they see and always appreciate it when their pointing it out Is done with good will in an effort to help me.

Sadly, there are people out there who are more interested in trying to make money than in making a good quality soap in a responsible manner...that's what I mean by "being deliberately ignorant about your craft".

No knowing, not understanding, being confused, having misconceptions, lack of experience...not the same.
 

gww

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Ok
deerfat1.jpg

I sure cut bad this time, I am hit and miss. Looks like gel on mold and not on small ones. Tried those little tobacco type containers for a mold. Nice size but could not get the soap out. It slipped right out of the medicine container that the tobacco container is sitting on. The gel is a bit darker then the non-gel. Its all fun and my feeling is that the soap is going to get hard but be ok, but of course that could be over confidence. I forgot to smell it but nothing was sticking out to me while cutting. I think I got 8 bars last time with this mold and so very inconsistent and not strait cuts either. did much better last time but they will work. Its all in good fun.
Cheers
gww
 

ResolvableOwl

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Don't overthink uneven bars. They'll lose their shape anyway during usage. Sales (and Youtube vanity, lol) sets a very high standard on uniform bar thickness, beveling etc. If you care, use something like a mitre box or a cheese cutter with a mark. But you don't have to care. You know best what the soaps will be used for, and what shape/thickness is acceptable for that.
 
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I sure cut bad this time, I am hit and miss. Looks like gel on mold and not on small ones. Tried those little tobacco type containers for a mold. Nice size but could not get the soap out. It slipped right out of the medicine container that the tobacco container is sitting on. The gel is a bit darker then the non-gel. Its all fun and my feeling is that the soap is going to get hard but be ok, but of course that could be over confidence. I forgot to smell it but nothing was sticking out to me while cutting. I think I got 8 bars last time with this mold and so very inconsistent and not strait cuts either. did much better last time but they will work. Its all in good fun.
Cheers
gww
Well done, they look great.
 

TheGecko

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I sure cut bad this time, I am hit and miss.

Mine were always uneven too. Until I got a killer deal on an original Bud's Single Bar Cutter I used a Cheese Slicer. I measured one inch from the wire and marked with a black Sharpie. Then I bought a dowel, sand paper and wood glue. Sanded one side of the dowel mostly flat, sanded along the edge of the slicer, then glued the dowel down. Worked great, still use it when I just need to cut a test batch.
 

Zany_in_CO

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Well, that was quick! Well done!!!
I sure cut bad this time, I am hit and miss.
Looks just like my first cut! Maybe better! :D
Looks like gel on mold and not on small ones.
That's to be expected. The greater mass of the mold allows the soap to gel throughout. Single cavity molds tend to not gel. Those plastic round containers make nice molds. I like little round soaps like that. I'm also partial to white. Lovely soap!
 

gww

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Thanks all for the encouragement and advice along the way. I have no ideal what size I might like in the end on bars but am a utilitarian and mostly like what acts like soap when I use it. Since I have like 50 bars made so far, I am just hoping those I gift to feel the same.

I do know I made a few really small ones in some chocolate molds and my brother loves them but all that goes though my mind is use once and then the rest is waste. They are as small or smaller than hotel soap.

I had to run to walmart to pick up a black friday deal for my wife and while there bought 4 more lbs of armour lard and so can just keep right on trucking for a little longer or at least am not stopped if I get a wild hair in a bored moment to make more of something. Zany, so far white is all I know. :)

Cheers
gww
 

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