Advice needed on adjusting recipes for faster trace

[KiwiMoose]

Whew! What a lot to take in. I would love to have a mixture that is as slow to trace as yours is. Anyhoo, an interesting observation I made recently when making a coconut milk soap...
I have made a total of four batches of coconut milk soap in my life, and the the first three all came to trace very quickly and I had to move swiftly. I always assumed it was the coconut milk, until I made the most recent batch when it took forever to come to trace. So what was different? In my previous recipes I had used the split method - to 1kg of oils I used 150g coconut milk, 150g water and 139g lye.
I don't quite know what planet I was on when i made the most recent batch, but I used ( to 1kg of oils) 160g coconut milk, 210g of water and 136g of lye.
In both cases the lye to oils concentration was pretty much the same, but in the latter I had more water. And this was the one that took forever to trace. I enjoyed the experience, it was so foreign to me : )

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Those work out to be 31.7% lye and 26.9% lye assuming I did the math correctly. I would call them moderate and high water concentrations. So the high water one was the slowest, which is exactly the opposite of what I observed. Don’t you just love the mysteries of soap making?! Were you using soy wax in the mix of oil?

 

[KiwiMoose]

Those work out to be 31.7% lye and 26.9% lye assuming I did the math correctly. I would call them moderate and high water concentrations. So the high water one was the slowest, which is exactly the opposite of what I observed. Don’t you just love the mysteries of soap making?! Were you using soy wax in the mix of oil?

Yes, 20%

 

[Rune]

This was a very interesting discussion. I have learned a lot, but still almost nothing, since everybody have so opposite experiences with the same things. I guess I just have to make a bunch of soaps and test all theories and others experiences for myself. High water, low water, high vs low lye concentration, high and low temperatures. Castor oil or not, rice bran oil or not, sugar or not, and last, kaolin clay or not.

That is one thing I have read somewhere, and not mentioned here, is that kaolin clay can speed things up. I don't know if it does or doesn't, and if something happens, it will probably slow trace for some and seize for others. But that is what I have read, kaolin can speed trace. You could probably give it a try and see what happens, if anything.

I have used kaolin clay, but can not tell if it speeds or not, since my soaps trace in an instant anyway, and I have no clear idea of what it is that makes it so speedy, other than I think it is a combination of things other than 1 single factor. But I don't know, I just think it is so. That's why I read this thread with interest, to see if I could do the opposite of what you all suggests for speeding up trace, and maybe that would slow my trace. And I see that there is no black and white answer of what slows down or speeds up trace. Maybe because every ones recipes are different with different mix of fatty acids and additives, lye concentrations and temperatures. Even the same oils are not the same in every country. My coconut oil is probably not the same as KiwiMoose's, not my olive oil either, or any other oil. New Zealand is so far away from me that you can't get any further without jumping out in the Pacific and swim a little further away. So of course we have different products, so do the Europeans and Americans, the Africans and Asians. That difference can make one pomace olive oil to trace quicker while another slows down, perhaps. It will not be unlikely, since an olive is not just an olive, like apples are not just apples, where all apples are exactly the same. Granny Smith and what all the others are called, yellow, green and red, sour and sweet, they are different, just like olives. Such things might explain why one pomace speeds up trace and others are no quicker than ordinary olive oil. Or they might not explain anything. I don't know, it was just some thoughts. I wish soapmaking was not this difficult, but on the other hand it might have been very boring if it was too easy.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

This was a very interesting discussion. I have learned a lot, but still almost nothing, since everybody have so opposite experiences with the same things. I guess I just have to make a bunch of soaps and test all theories and others experiences for myself. High water, low water, high vs low lye concentration, high and low temperatures. Castor oil or not, rice bran oil or not, sugar or not, and last, kaolin clay or not.

That is one thing I have read somewhere, and not mentioned here, is that kaolin clay can speed things up. I don't know if it does or doesn't, and if something happens, it will probably slow trace for some and seize for others. But that is what I have read, kaolin can speed trace. You could probably give it a try and see what happens, if anything.

I have used kaolin clay, but can not tell if it speeds or not, since my soaps trace in an instant anyway, and I have no clear idea of what it is that makes it so speedy, other than I think it is a combination of things other than 1 single factor. But I don't know, I just think it is so. That's why I read this thread with interest, to see if I could do the opposite of what you all suggests for speeding up trace, and maybe that would slow my trace. And I see that there is no black and white answer of what slows down or speeds up trace. Maybe because every ones recipes are different with different mix of fatty acids and additives, lye concentrations and temperatures. Even the same oils are not the same in every country. My coconut oil is probably not the same as KiwiMoose's, not my olive oil either, or any other oil. New Zealand is so far away from me that you can't get any further without jumping out in the Pacific and swim a little further away. So of course we have different products, so do the Europeans and Americans, the Africans and Asians. That difference can make one pomace olive oil to trace quicker while another slows down, perhaps. It will not be unlikely, since an olive is not just an olive, like apples are not just apples, where all apples are exactly the same. Granny Smith and what all the others are called, yellow, green and red, sour and sweet, they are different, just like olives. Such things might explain why one pomace speeds up trace and others are no quicker than ordinary olive oil. Or they might not explain anything. I don't know, it was just some thoughts. I wish soapmaking was not this difficult, but on the other hand it might have been very boring if it was too easy.

I think that if we had every pertinent detail for the chemical composition of the ingredients, techniques, temperatures, humidity, stick blender torque, etc used by each soap maker, we would almost be able to eliminate the apparent vagaries of the soap making process.

Incidentally, I don’t have any issues with clay speeding trace regardless of whether or not I add it in oil or hydrated with water.

 

[melinda48]

I have been soaping, quite successfully, at 1.7:1
Interesting that this seems to give me more than enough time to “play around” and produces a terrific hard soap.

 

[penelopejane]

After re-reading all of the suggestions above, I’m thinking about doing a lye concentration/temperature combination experiment. For a given recipe, a minimal set of combinations would be:

Low water, low temp
Low water, high temp
High water, low temp
High water, high temp

If someone in the SMF community has already done this kind of experiment, I would love to know how it turned out.

I think this will be a useful experiment for you.
I think trace is also recipe dependant.
For me AC speeds trace a lot. Green clay and bentonite clay speed trace a fair bit even if I soak them in the recipe water for an hour. Indigo speeds trace a little.

So every ingredient and every additive will change your results. As will temp and lye concentration.

Try using a small disposable cup to SB small amounts of batter.

 

[cmzaha]

I also think trace is recipe dependant. I use 40% palm in my Vegan recipe and it traces quickly. The theory of the higher lye concentration creating more work time simply does not work for my recipe. I have to lower my lye concentration to around 31% to make it workable. My Tallow/Lard recipe also traces pretty quick, with a 33% lye concentration.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Between company last weekend and a work related trip this week, I think this is the longest I’ve gone without making soap since I started. I’m looking forward to getting back to some experimentation this weekend. Will report back!

 

[KiwiMoose]

Between company last weekend and a work related trip this week, I think this is the longest I’ve gone without making soap since I started. I’m looking forward to getting back to some experimentation this weekend. Will report back!

Are you getting the shakes yet?

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Are you getting the shakes yet?

It’s not good when you’re thinking about your next soap at a work retreat

 

[Dawni]

It’s not good when you’re thinking about your next soap at a work retreat

It gets worse... Everything you see will have you wondering if it's soapable lol

 

[Susie]

You have gotten some awesome advice here. But a word of warning...make ONE change at the time. That way you know which one gets you the result you want. This opens you up to being able to change recipes and such later.

For me, though, I just soap warmer or add more water. Works a charm.