Advice needed for slow trace

[MauiJen]

I'd love some advice. I've been making cold process soap for a little over a year off and on. In the past month (after a few months of not making soap), with both old tried & true recipes and new recipes, it's suddenly taking FOREVER to reach trace every time. (like well over an hour, sometimes more than 2-3 hours). I sometimes use a stick blender and sometimes use a Kitchen Aid Stand Mixer.

I live in Hawaii and it's warm and humid inside my house (the temp inside is usually about 80 deg when I make soap and my windows are almost always open, so it's pretty humid in here). I thought maybe I just bought a few bad (old?) containers of lye (sources are scarce here on Maui and I have a feeling they sit on the shelf for a loooong time), so I purchased a new container and the first batch made with the new container traced *a little* quicker than the other batches (about 45 minutes), but subsequent batches with the same container are taking well over an hour.

Is it possible I'm getting moisture in my lye container so inaccurate lye measurements? Should I take more of a water discount because of my humid climate? How much is too much of a water discount (I already feel like I take quite a bit of one - for example when my recipe calls for 8-12 oz of water and 4.5 oz of lye, I've been trying it with 7-7.5 oz of water, but still no luck with a quicker trace. I'm afraid to use any less than that, that the soap will be too lye heavy).

So, any suggestions? Am I doomed to just hours and hours of blending to get to trace?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

As to the amount of water, you need at least the same weight of water as lye to dissolve it - few people go to this 1:1 ratio as it can be hard to dissolve the lye fully, especially if you make a mis-calc and use too less water. I think where you are is fine with that - a little room to play with and I imagine that the lye dissolves rather well.

What sort of temperatures (oils & lye) are you soaping at? Soaping colder will slow things down, while soaping warmer can speed things up - but please note that I have only picked this up from some other topics, I don't know if that is 100% so would appreciate other people's thoughts on that.

What sort of oils are you using? Some oils take longer to trace than others.

If you're using new lye as well, that takes away my very first thought - that the lye is damp. Is it 100% lye?

Can you post one recipe, including lye and water amounts used? One that took around the 2 to 3 hours to trace, so that people can really dig in to things.

 

[mintle]

I am thinking - maybe you have changed your olive from pomace to extra virgin one?

For me, if I want to slow trace, I soap cold (wait for both the oils and lye to cool), use full water and use high percentage of lard, sunflower ho or almond oil in my recipe. So you would probably have to do right the opposite - first of all, use warm lye water and warm oils. Whenever I make plain soap (no special swirling), I reduce my water to 33%-40% lye concentration and I've never been unlucky to have undissolved lye. It would be good to post your recipe, just as TEG* wisely advised above

*TEG - I'm so sorry The Efficacious Gentleman but your nick is a true spelling trap for a foreigner ))))

 

[Hazel]

You've already gotten some good advice. I can confirm blending at higher temps will make soap trace faster and using olive pomace oil also will trace faster. A water discount also helps for a faster trace. (Using a water discount, pomace and higher temp traces shockingly fast. I was lucky to beat the colorant in and get it into the mold. :cry: )

On the positive side, you can probably be able to use the FOs that cause acceleration and make other soapers cry in frustration. :grin:

*TEG - I'm so sorry The Efficacious Gentleman but your nick is a true spelling trap for a foreigner

Not just for foreigners, too. :shh:

 

[MauiJen]

Thank you all for your replies! I've read about trying warmer temperatures and have tried that - with some of the same recipes and the trace still took a long time (so with the same recipes I tried with both the lye and oils at 100*F and at various temps up to about 120*F, but my trace times were still around 2 hours. I try to keep my lye and oils around the same temperature when I mix them).

I am usually using Extra Virgin Olive Oil because I can't seem to find pomace olive oil anywhere on Maui and most soap supply companies won't ship to Hawaii (or if they do, their shipping fees are prohibitive). I did finally place my first order with Essential Depot last night and ordered both lye and pomace olive oil, so soon will be my first time soaping with pomace.

I'm thinking maybe I need to try decreasing my olive oil percentage in my recipes, but I'm trying to keep my costs down (so no "exotic" / more expensive oils, or at least only in very small amounts), don't want too high a percentage of coconut oil (not much more than 30%), and am palm oil and lard free (I know, I'm really limiting my options! ha!). But maybe I'm not making the right oil choices here? This is really my first time trying to come up with my own recipes, so I honestly don't know what I'm doing with that. Up until now I've only ever tried a recipe found in a book or online. Any recipe suggestions would be great too! Here are a few that I've tried (again, I think these may be olive oil heavy with the super slow trace?)...

16 oz olive oil
10 oz coconut oil
5 oz castor oil
1 oz almond oil
4.5 oz lye
7.5 oz water (after a batch with 8 oz water)

18 oz olive oil
9 oz Coconut oil
6 oz Castor oil
0.25 oz Beeswax
4.5 oz lye
7 oz water

12 oz olive oil
10 oz coconut oil
6 oz sunflower oil
4 oz shae butter
4.5 oz lye
8 oz water

I don't use any fragrance oils, just essential oils and add them at thin trace.

Thank you so much for any help!! I'm going to experiment some more today with other recipes and see what happens. But I'm getting frustrated! I'm not sure I can handle many more batches of listening to that mixer go for 2 hours!!

 

[houseofwool]

I am wondering if the issue is that your lye has absorbed the humidity and therefore you simply don't have enough in the batter. When you get the new bottles from ED, I would pop in a few desiccant packs, like you get sometimes in vitamins or shoes.

The other question is what exactly are you looking for with trace. It can be as thin as gravy or thick like pudding. As long as the water and the oil don't separate from each other when you stop stirring, it should, in theory, become soap.

 

[MauiJen]

I am wondering if the issue is that your lye has absorbed the humidity and therefore you simply don't have enough in the batter. When you get the new bottles from ED, I would pop in a few desiccant packs, like you get sometimes in vitamins or shoes.

The other question is what exactly are you looking for with trace. It can be as thin as gravy or thick like pudding. As long as the water and the oil don't separate from each other when you stop stirring, it should, in theory, become soap.

Great idea! I'm wondering about the humidity too as the quickest trace I got (45 minutes) was right after I opened a new bottle of lye this week. The next batch with the same container of lye took 2+ hrs to trace. Any ideas where I can buy some of the desiccant packs?

Personally I prefer a nice thick trace, but right now I'm settling for ANY trace, even thin. So that is what is taking forever to get.

Of note, the one batch I got the quicker (45 minutes) trace, I used Tangerine + Clove essential oils for fragrance and added it earlier than I normally would, before I got a true trace, but just when it was starting to thicken a bit, and within about 10 minutes of that I got a nice, thick trace. I'm thinking it might have been the citrus oils that might have sped things up a bit? Because the same recipe again without the addition of EOs is taking 2 hrs or more to trace.

 

[cmzaha]

Clove accelerates trace considerably, not so much citrus in my experience. Clove also heats up

 

[IrishLass]

Wow- the water amount you used in each of those recipes would have caused thick trace for me within about 5 minutes or so. Something not right is going on.

The clove oil that you used in your quickest-tracing batch is the most likely cause of the quicker trace (clove oil is a notorious trouble-maker when it comes to acceleration/seize in CP). Hazel may be onto something with her tongue-in-cheek suggestion to use FOs that make other soapers cry in frustration. lol

One thing you might want to check is your scale. Is it weighing properly/accurately?


IrishLass

 

[MauiJen]

Wow- the water amount you used in each of those recipes would have caused thick trace for me within about 5 minutes or so. Something not right is going on.

The clove oil that you used in your quickest-tracing batch is the most likely cause of the quicker trace (clove oil is a notorious trouble-maker when it comes to acceleration/seize in CP). Hazel may be onto something with her tongue-in-cheek suggestion to use FOs that make other soapers cry in frustration. lol

One thing you might want to check is your scale. Is it weighing properly/accurately?


IrishLass

That's what I was thinking with my water amounts. I started out using the smallest suggested amount from the lye calculator and then started trying taking even a little more of a discount from there. I'm too afraid to take any more of a discount.

I just checked my scale against a small postal scale I have and it seems fine.

I don't know what else to do!!

I think that leaves the lye. My only options for purchasing lye on island are Ace Hardware, 2 different stores, but I'm sure they both probably receive their shipments from the same container on the same boat (everything we buy here on Maui comes to us via container ship). Possibly the entire shipment is bad? It could be really, really old. I did notice that when I open the new containers, the paper seal comes right off (like it's stuck to the inside of the lid), so maybe moisture got into the entire shipment of lye either during shipment or while it's been sitting on the shelf in the store? I don't want to keep trying to buy new containers of lye that could be bad (It's expensive here too - I pay $9-10 for 16 oz of lye).

I may just have to wait until my new lye gets here from ED and try that.

 

[Obsidian]

How is the soap that took so long to trace? Did it set and get get nice and hard? I had lye take in moisture while I was weighing it once and the soap was soft and oily.
I don't think the OO is the only culprit. I've made 100% extra virgin olive oil soap and even that traced within 20 minutes or so.

 

[MauiJen]

How is the soap that took so long to trace? Did it set and get get nice and hard? I had lye take in moisture while I was weighing it once and the soap was soft and oily.
I don't think the OO is the only culprit. I've made 100% extra virgin olive oil soap and even that traced within 20 minutes or so.

So far one batch seemed way too soft, after 2+ days in the mold it still wasn't setting up. I unmolded it and threw it out. It might have just needed more time, but I've never had it take that long to set up. The other batches seem OK. I've been able to unmold them after about 36 hrs and cut them into bars 24 hours after that. One batch I made yesterday (not quite 24 hrs ago) that took 2+ hrs to trace seems a little oily to me when I checked it today.

Honestly, I'm just not sure. I'm used to getting a really thick trace and seeing a clear gel phase. Only one of these batches did I get a thick trace (the one that I added the clove + tangerine EO) and it clearly went through a nice gel and was hardened enough to unmold after about 24 hours. I've cut the bars and they look great. All the other batches don't really seem to have gone through as much of a gel to me, so I don't know how they'll be after curing? I'm not sure if they'll be usable or not? I molded them with a much thinner trace than I'm used to so I don't know if this is normal or not. Maybe I should post a photo?

I'm just so frustrated!

Thank you again everyone for all of the feedback! I'm new to this forum and I've already found so much helpful information!

 

[Hazel]

I'm sorry you tossed the batch. I've had high % OO batches take awhile to set up but eventually they will. You could also have tried rebatching.

I think houseofwool's comment about lye absorbing humidity could be highly probable since you mentioned the paper seals didn't adhere. She also brought up a good point about getting past the emulsified stage. Once you reach emulsification, the batch will continue through saponification. Also, your soap doesn't have to go through the gel phase to achieve complete saponification. I don't gel some of my batches and they do saponify. It just takes a day or two longer for all the lye to be converted.

You might find this article by David Fisher helpful. http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/soapglossary/f/How-To-Affect-Trace-Time-In-Soap-Making.htm

Just a suggestion but you could reduce the water a little more if you feel comfortable with 40% lye concentration. You could use 6.8 oz instead of 7.5 for the first recipe.

BTW, you mentioned you didn't want to go higher than 30% CO but you have 31.25% in the first and third recipes. It's not an issue for the first one (IMO) since olive and castor are so conditioning that they minimize the dryness of CO. My skin doesn't like higher than 25% CO unless I use a higher than normal lye discount or add dairy to the batch. But I have found I can use a larger percentage of CO when combined with a larger percentage of OO. The third one I might find a little drying but not too much. I'd just use an 8% lye discount to offset it.

You might consider experimenting and making a small batch of 60% OO, 35% CO and 5% castor or even try 55% OO, 40% CO and 5% castor.

Have you always used castor at 15+%? Depending on the purpose of the soap, this might be a little high and people have commented on soft, sticky soap when using it at higher percentages. It's also a humectant so it might be drawing a little moisture to the soap. Probably not enough to make a difference somewhere else, but it might since you live in high humidity area. I doubt it's the problem but it might be a contributing factor. But several people have commented castor speeds up trace. So, you may not want to reduce it if you like what castor brings to the party.

Perhaps the problem is a combination of factors.

I like the look of the third recipe because it's very similar to a bath bar recipe I make. I never could do anything too fancy with it since it traced quickly for me. However, I use either lard or palm in recipes and you stated you don't use either one.

Do you have cocoa butter? I've seen it mentioned that CB helps to quicken trace but I don't know this from my experience. I don't use it very often in soap and only at 5%.

Hazel may be onto something with her tongue-in-cheek suggestion to use FOs that make other soapers cry in frustration.

It wasn't tongue in cheek. I've experienced a few teary eyed moments during soapmaking. Love the scents, hate the acceleration. Let's not even discuss soap on a stick.

After saying this, I'm off to make a batch with a FO which I've been told will seize and strangle a batch into rigor mortis. I may be crying later.

 

[MauiJen]

You might find this article by David Fisher helpful. http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/soapglossary/f/How-To-Affect-Trace-Time-In-Soap-Making.htm

Just a suggestion but you could reduce the water a little more if you feel comfortable with 40% lye concentration. You could use 6.8 oz instead of 7.5 for the first recipe.

BTW, you mentioned you didn't want to go higher than 30% CO but you have 31.25% in the first and third recipes.

You might consider experimenting and making a small batch of 60% OO, 35% CO and 5% castor or even try 55% OO, 40% CO and 5% castor.

Do you have cocoa butter? I've seen it mentioned that CB helps to quicken trace but I don't know this from my experience. I don't use it very often in soap and only at 5%.

Thanks for all of this Hazel - great info here!!

I think when I said I didn't want to go higher than 30% CO, I really meant I wanted to try to keep it around 30%, I'm OK with slightly higher. I've used it as high as 40% and it didn't seem TOO drying, but that's what I worry about, so try to keep it a bit lower. I'm going to play with the percentages you suggested above and see what happens, but with the cocoa butter added and dropping my water down a bit more.

In the past, my recipes have had castor oil at a lower percentage, but now that I'm having so much trouble getting my batches to trace and I've been playing around with these recipes, I thought maybe I should try to decrease the OO. I didn't want to increase my Coconut oil too much, so that left me with playing with more castor oil. But I have no idea what I'm doing really - I don't know if that's better or worse when it comes to trace and honestly have no idea what I'll end up with in a finished soap (I don't feel like I'm experienced enough to really have a good grasp on the qualities of all the individual oils).

I do have other oils available, but the expense of them here on Maui makes me not want to use them that often or in any significant quantities. I'm trying to find a good "master recipe" that can be my go-to recipe that I just tweak slightly when I want to experiment. Something that's relatively economical. Other oils I have on hand are Almond, Avocado, Sunflower, hemp. I also have Cocoa and Shae Butter and beeswax. Sunflower Oil is pretty cheap here, but I haven't had much luck soaping with it honestly.

I did try a recipe with beeswax earlier this week thinking that would really speed things up, and added everything in at a really high temp (140 deg F) and still took 2 hours to trace!

I did make a batch last night with cocoa butter (around 5%) and it still took about 2 hours to trace. It was with another brand of lye my husband had found at Lowe's, so now I'm really confused. (I had been convinced it was just the lye). I'm really second guessing myself and feeling like there must be something I'm missing and just doing wrong.

I started using the Kitchen Aid because I couldn't hold the stick blender for 2 hours (I'm a Physical Therapist and it makes me cringe to think about tightly gripping a vibrating tool for 2 hours and what that does to my hand / wrist / elbow! I wouldn't even consider hand stirring! LOL), not to mention I'm pretty sure my crappy stick blender motor would probably burn up anyway. But I'm thinking maybe the kitchen aid isn't agitating the mixture enough? I might try 10 minutes with the stick blender today and then switch to the kitchen aid.

The David Fisher article mentioned that honey sometimes speeds up trace. I've never used honey in my soaps before. When do you typically add honey?

I'm also interested in trying other recipes. I'm new to this forum, so still figuring out how to find my way around. Is there a specific area where people share their favorite recipes? Does anyone have a recipe they love? (no palm oil or lard).

Thanks again everyone!

 

[IrishLass]

II started using the Kitchen Aid because I couldn't hold the stick blender for 2 hours (I'm a Physical Therapist and it makes me cringe to think about tightly gripping a vibrating tool for 2 hours and what that does to my hand / wrist / elbow! I wouldn't even consider hand stirring! LOL), not to mention I'm pretty sure my crappy stick blender motor would probably burn up anyway. But I'm thinking maybe the kitchen aid isn't agitating the mixture enough? I might try 10 minutes with the stick blender today and then switch to the kitchen aid.

You don't need to have the stickblender going the whole time (your hands, wrists, and elbows can breathe a sigh of relief!) . Actually, it's recommended that you shouldn't have it on the whole time. Just a few short bursts off and on every now and again is usually all it takes to get things going.

IrishLass

 

[MauiJen]

You don't need to have the stickblender going the whole time (your hands, wrists, and elbows can breathe a sigh of relief!) . Actually, it's recommended that you shouldn't have it on the whole time. Just a few short bursts off and on every now and again is usually all it takes to get things going.

IrishLass

Oh, I don't have it on the whole time! But 2 hours of short bursts is still quite a bit of repetitive strain to the tendons! A great way to get tennis elbow! (most people probably won't, but it will definitely increase your risk). The gripping plus the vibration for any length of time is not good for you. Wearing gardening gloves to absorb some of the vibration would help, but who's going to do that? LOL. I also worry that because it's taking 2 hours of non-stop blending in the kitchen aid, it might take even longer with the short bursts on the stick blender? I'm not sure. I don't know...but as a Physical Therapist, I do know that holding onto a vibrating stick blender for longer than about 10 cumulative minutes has the potential to cause problems for anyone over time.

 

[Hazel]

I’m not sure how much you know and I don’t want to offend. So, please don’t feel insulted if I mention something you already know.

As long as you’ve gotten a stable emulsion, you don’t have to blend until you see trace. The emulsified stage is the point of no return. The oils and lye will continue to react and saponification will occur. It just might take longer than 24 hours. I don’t know for sure how long.

I’ll admit to a touch of envy. I have a terrible time seeing emulsification (bad eyesight & poor kitchen lighting). The emulsified point or a little past it is when you can achieve some awesome swirls. I tend to zip past just emulsified into pudding. I read somewhere (I’d give credit to the person if I could remember who mentioned it) that you can tell you’ve reached emulsification by looking at where the soap touches the side of the bowl. You’ll see a thin ring of oil or slight translucency at the edge if you haven’t reached a stable emulsification. If the edge is opaque, then you have a stable emulsion. I've had much better luck with swirling since I started to watch the edge.

You’ll find some recipes in the Soapmaking Recipes and Tutorials section. http://www.soapmakingforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=24

But there are also recipes interspersed through the CP section.

I add honey after I’ve blended in the lye. I use IrishLass’s tip (or someone’s tip – not sure who mentioned it) and dissolve it in water so it will mix in more easily. However, this is just how I do it and it may not be the best way since I rarely use honey.

What was the problem with sunflower oil? I love sunflower oil and use it in almost all my recipes. However, I have switched to using high oleic sunflower since it has a longer shelf life.

You can use a higher percentage of coconut. Just use more of a lye discount for more unsaponified oils. I’d use at least 10% lye discount (superfat) if I was using 40% CO but I have very dry skin. I’d probably use 12-13% during the winter. What lye discount/superfat do you use for your recipes? You might not need to use 10% if you’re using 5% and found 40% just a little drying. You might find 8% is fine for your soap.

Avocado has a high percentage of unsaponifiables in it so it would be a nice addition to a recipe. Of course, olive also has a high percentage of unsaponifiables.

I used to use 10% castor in my recipes because I like the extra conditioning and the boost it gives to lather. It was part of the reason my recipes traced so quickly. Now I use it at 5% and soap at a cooler temp to give myself more time for swirling.

Maybe you’ll have to try cocoa butter slightly higher than 5%. I don’t know how much might help to quicken trace. I wish I knew something that would help you. I’ll look around and see if I can find a recipe which might help you.

 

[MauiJen]

No, I'm not offended at all! I'm really not a very experienced soaper, so I appreciate all of the advice and suggestions!! I do realize that I'm probably good once I get emulsification, but I personally just really prefer a nice thick trace, for no other reason than I just like the way my finished soap looks and feels better when I have a thicker trace than when it's a thinner, runnier trace when I mold it. It's absolutely just personal preference. When I said it's taking 2 hours to get to trace, what I mean is that when I stop blending and let it sit, it looks like it's separating to me, like the mixture is separating after a few minutes - I'll get a more opaque mix settling on the bottom and then a definite clear liquid on top. It will remain like this for over an hour, sometimes 2 hours and then finally I'll suddenly get a thin trace. But I never do get a thick trace like I prefer.

Also, I'm not blending / mixing for that entire 2 hours. I'll mix pretty consistently for the first 15-20 minutes, then I'll let it just sit for about 10 minutes, mix for 5 minutes, sit for 10, mix for 5 and continue like that. Just to clarify.

However, I did FINALLY get a nice thick trace after about 15 minutes this afternoon!! I did a few things different, so I'm not sure what it was. I increased the cocoa butter quite a bit (I don't love doing this because when I molded, the soap had a definite cocoa butter smell). I also dissolved about 1 T of sugar in my water before adding the lye. I saw this in a random recipe I found and decided to try it. I did it by boiling a small amount of the water and dissolving the sugar, then adding that sugar water to the remainder of the water, letting the water cool down to room temp, then added my lye. (those were the instructions in the recipe). I'll come back in a bit and post the exact recipe. I also started out with about 10 minutes of blending with my stick blender, then changed to my kitchen aid.

Also, I'm not sure what it was about the Sunflower oil I didn't care for - I just remember when I used it, I didn't love the finished soap. But it might not have even been the oil, it might have been the recipe.

I'm in the process of waiting for another batch of lye / sugar water to cool down and I'm going to try another recipe, this time without cocoa butter, to see how it goes. I want to figure out if it was the increase in cocoa butter or the sugar that sped things up for me. I'm still going to start with the stick blender and then move to the kitchen aid. That's easy enough to continue every batch.

Thank you again, really, for all of the help!!

 

[Hazel]

That's great that you got thick trace so quickly. I didn't think about sugar contributing to a faster trace. I used to add sugar to every batch to boost bubbles but stopped when I finally got to a recipe which I thought had good lather without it. But now that I think about it, this might have been another factor which contributed to a slower trace for me. You've given me something to think about and possibly experiment with when I get a chance. Like I need another item on my want-to-try list.

I came across these recipes which you might find interesting if you haven't already seen them. I don't know how these will tun out since I've never made them. The only thing I can say is you don't want to use hazelnut. It really slows trace. http://www.gracefruit.com/palm-free-soap-recipes.html

It's all personal preference. My skin loves sunflower oil which is why I use it in almost everything I make. I prefer it over olive since it feels lighter to me and my skin absorbs it better. Plus it's cheaper than olive.

You're welcome and I hope some of what I wrote was helpful for you.

 

[MauiJen]

So I made another batch with the sugar water, but this time no cocoa butter in the recipe. I didn't get the nice thick trace like I like, but I did at least get a thin trace about 20 minutes into mixing, which is still WAY better than the 2 hours I was dealing with. So I think sugar water is the way to go! I think my previous batch that I got the thick trace must have been the combo of the sugar and the cocoa butter, so I think I'll play with that and see if I can't find a recipe I'm happy with - I wasn't thrilled with the strong cocoa butter scent (it overpowered my essential oils I used to fragrance), but maybe I can try gradually decreasing the cocoa butter percentage in the recipe and find something that still gives me that thick -and quick(er) trace I prefer, but less of a cocoa butter smell. The first recipe (that resulted in a thick trace after about 15 minutes) was 11 oz Olive, 11 oz Coconut oil, 7.2 oz Sunflower Oil, 3.5 oz Castor oil, 3.5 oz Cocoa Butter, 5 oz lye, and I used 7.8 oz water (so quite a bit of a water discount). I did add 1 T kaolin clay to the oils as well. My first time using that. I have no idea if / how that affects trace time?